Need Fresh Perspective

vadoom

vadoom

ай!! арбу&#10
A bit of history:

I've been recording for some time now. Started with Yamaha PSR500 :rolleyes: back when they just came out. I'd lose songs every time the D cell batteries needed replacement :(. Upgraded to Korg i3 after about a year and progressed for a while mostly concentrating on obtaining various modules and recording in a MIDI sequencer.

Later I've moved towards recording to a digital recorder. Have been using AW4416 for the last few years. A very nice piece of equipment. I like it better than a MIDI sequencer as a primary recording tool. Even though AW4416 gives me a decent amount of control over the sound, I still feel that I don't have much freedom to shape the sound the way I want it to be.


My plan for moving forward:

In past few weeks I've considered moving toward a computer based recording (laptop. XP/Vista). The idea is to create a good interface (signal path) between the source of sound and a computer. Primary source of my sound are sound modules. Also have access to bass guitar, acoustic and an electric guitar. Plan to record vocals as well. Vocals are a whole new can of worms - I haven't even considered the mics. But I figured when I have a solid signal path, I'll then determine the mics I need.

At the end I decided I need a solid A/D converter and a solid preamp (yeah, I figured this all on my own!). I'd prefer the converter be transparent while the pre can add some warmth/color. At this point not really sure how warmth and color specifically sound, but to me it means mids somewhat boosted, added harmonics, a bit of "vintage noise", and perhaps a bit of "life" vs digital sterility/flatness in a sound.


Conclusion:

Reading through hundreds of posts and sites I decided that a good starting point would be Fireface 800 for a converter and JoeMeek twinQ for a pre. Below I list my impression/expectation regarding the Fireface and twinQ:

Fireface: My impression that it is transparent (similar to Aurora 8) vs Apogee Rosetta that adds color (according to some posts). I expect it to be adequate for when I use higher quality equipment: condenser in $1k-$2k range. Preamp upgrade in $2k-$4k range

twinQ: My impression is that this pre is a solid middle-of-the-road preamp for vocals as well as guitars and maybe modules. OK, maybe a preamp for modules is a bit of an overkill, but it is still something I want to experiment with. I expect it to still be an adequate preamp even alongside a more expensive one.

The idea is to avoid having to upgrade converter in next 5 years. Also to be able to upgrade to a great preamp (if need be) while keeping exiting preamp. At the same time have a wide enough "sweet spot" where I don't have to think too much about compensating for equipment to get the warm colorful sound.


My point:

I would like to see if my reasoning is on a right path - that I'm not missing something critical. Or perhaps I'm going off the deep end all and that equipment is an overkill. Please provide some suggestions if possible - even though I'm set on the described equipment, there is still part of my mind that is open. You wouldn't believe how many times I've reconsidered what to get in the past few weeks:D. Even after I was dead sure I wanted something or other, I'd come across some element that would make me change my mind.

Sorry for making this so long.
Thank you in advance.
 
Sheesh!!! So much for a helpful community...................... :D:D
 
vadoom said:
Sheesh!!! So much for a helpful community...................... :D:D
Click to expand...
It was difficult to find a question in there... you were waxing eloquently on your possibilities... all of which could be good choices...

So... in answer to your question... Yes :confused:
 
MOFO Pro said:
It was difficult to find a question in there... you were waxing eloquently on your possibilities... all of which could be good choices...
Click to expand...

MOFO is right, your post was more about the conclusions you've come to than anything else. Also, if your question comes at the end of a long post, many people will not have read down that far.

The weakness in all your planning is when you say "impression". You've done a lot of reading of reviews and internet discussion forums, but apparently have not had any real world experience with the gear in question. i.e., you've not heard it, seen it, or touched it in person.

It's impossible to make a truly informed decision without having actually physically looked at the gear in question, and hopefully been able to play around with it. I find that even seeing the gear in person and playing with the knobs and buttons tells me a lot about it. You can spot cheap construction a mile off.

Also, at a store they will probably have some competing products as well, so you'll get a better idea of what's out there. Something else might catch your fancy, something you are not even considering now.

The bottom line is that with "impressions" and "expectations" you are really just guessing. Go to a well stocked store, or visit studios in your area that actually have some of this type of gear. Doing this will tell you as much and more than hundreds of posts on message boards can.

The problem with message boards is that a lot people spout off about gear they don't own. If you weed out those posts you'll find very few posts from people who actually own and have used the gear. Then, you have to weed out the posts from the people for whom that particular gear is their first "good" gear, as those comments tend to be very enthusiastic. Ideally, the only people to pay real attention to are those that personally know the gear you are considering, and also have used better gear.

But ultimately, the best thing to do is get your hands on the real deal one way or another and make your choice based on real world experience.
 
SonicAlbert said:
MOFO is right, your post was more about the conclusions you've come to than anything else. Also, if your question comes at the end of a long post, many people will not have read down that far.

The weakness in all your planning is when you say "impression". You've done a lot of reading of reviews and internet discussion forums, but apparently have not had any real world experience with the gear in question. i.e., you've not heard it, seen it, or touched it in person.

It's impossible to make a truly informed decision without having actually physically looked at the gear in question, and hopefully been able to play around with it. I find that even seeing the gear in person and playing with the knobs and buttons tells me a lot about it. You can spot cheap construction a mile off.

Also, at a store they will probably have some competing products as well, so you'll get a better idea of what's out there. Something else might catch your fancy, something you are not even considering now.

The bottom line is that with "impressions" and "expectations" you are really just guessing. Go to a well stocked store, or visit studios in your area that actually have some of this type of gear. Doing this will tell you as much and more than hundreds of posts on message boards can.

The problem with message boards is that a lot people spout off about gear they don't own. If you weed out those posts you'll find very few posts from people who actually own and have used the gear. Then, you have to weed out the posts from the people for whom that particular gear is their first "good" gear, as those comments tend to be very enthusiastic. Ideally, the only people to pay real attention to are those that personally know the gear you are considering, and also have used better gear.

But ultimately, the best thing to do is get your hands on the real deal one way or another and make your choice based on real world experience.
Click to expand...

Another problem with message boards is that you can't even get a good opinion of a single component because everyone has a different recording environment. Acoustcally treated rooms have a vastly different sound than your standard bedroom/basement/whatever. So, pre-amp/mic X is muddy or crisp or harsh or boomy etc. This is where they visit the mixing/mastering boards to find out why the mix sucks, and then how do I master this?

The only way to find out if anything works for you is to have it in your studio and hear it. Make friends with a salesperson and buy from them. I can buy and return anything I want because I go to the same guy every time.

Anyway, with shipping costs being what they are, buying local is pretty much coming back these days.
 
Whilst you're checking out the Fireface also have a look at the Echo range! I have the Layla 3G and it sounds superb. There are quite a few people who prefer these to the Fireface ( though I personally haven't tried one ). If you fine you really like it then you will have more money to spend on better preamps!
 
Thank you for your feedback. I totally agree that the best way to do things is to simply do comparisons/listen for yourself.

dickiefunk: Thanks for the tip regarding Echo. Somehow it totally slipped my attention and I didn't even consider it... This is good feedback.

SonicAlbert and MCI2424: You guys are totally right. But then it is reassuring to hear that the setup I'm planning does not seem to have any major flaws/overlooks. After all, I was looking for a fresh perspective (if possible).

Yes, I realize that my post was rather long and hard to see the point right off the bat... However, it was my first post. Ever. :D It was an interesting experience... Well... I guess now all I can do is learn from my mistake(s)... :D:D
 
At this point not really sure how warmth and color specifically sound, but to me it means mids somewhat boosted, added harmonics, a bit of "vintage noise", and perhaps a bit of "life" vs digital sterility/flatness in a sound.
Click to expand...
To me, "warmth and color" means finding that exquisite juxtaposition of deep, brooding, intensity with a lighthearted splash of pesky insouciance. The TwinQ is probably just a little too impetuous to match the naive clarity of the Fireface. I would suspect that the slack-jawed brashness of an M-Audio DMP3 would be more emotionally satisfying in this signal chain.
 
The Axis said:
To me, "warmth and color" means finding that exquisite juxtaposition of deep, brooding, intensity with a lighthearted splash of pesky insouciance. The TwinQ is probably just a little too impetuous to match the naive clarity of the Fireface. I would suspect that the slack-jawed brashness of an M-Audio DMP3 would be more emotionally satisfying in this signal chain.
Click to expand...


OK, let me get this straight:

Never mind what "warmth and color" means to you, you are saying TwinQ will have (well basically) too much distortion to the sound that I might as well get a preamp that is also known for clarity...

Or are you saying that twinQ is not worth the trouble?

:confused: :D:D:D:D

By the way, I am considering getting DMP3 (currently on the back burner). Fireface800 will have 4 pres I might want to consider working with... At the end of the day, twinQ is not supposed to be my "ultimate" preamp. Just something I to use for some time in different setups to see where it may fit best.......
 
vadoom said:
A bit of history:

I've been recording for some time now. Started with Yamaha PSR500 :rolleyes: back when they just came out. I'd lose songs every time the D cell batteries needed replacement :(. Upgraded to Korg i3 after about a year and progressed for a while mostly concentrating on obtaining various modules and recording in a MIDI sequencer.

Later I've moved towards recording to a digital recorder. Have been using AW4416 for the last few years. A very nice piece of equipment. I like it better than a MIDI sequencer as a primary recording tool. Even though AW4416 gives me a decent amount of control over the sound, I still feel that I don't have much freedom to shape the sound the way I want it to be.


My plan for moving forward:

In past few weeks I've considered moving toward a computer based recording (laptop. XP/Vista). The idea is to create a good interface (signal path) between the source of sound and a computer. Primary source of my sound are sound modules. Also have access to bass guitar, acoustic and an electric guitar. Plan to record vocals as well. Vocals are a whole new can of worms - I haven't even considered the mics. But I figured when I have a solid signal path, I'll then determine the mics I need.

At the end I decided I need a solid A/D converter and a solid preamp (yeah, I figured this all on my own!). I'd prefer the converter be transparent while the pre can add some warmth/color. At this point not really sure how warmth and color specifically sound, but to me it means mids somewhat boosted, added harmonics, a bit of "vintage noise", and perhaps a bit of "life" vs digital sterility/flatness in a sound.


Conclusion:

Reading through hundreds of posts and sites I decided that a good starting point would be Fireface 800 for a converter and JoeMeek twinQ for a pre. Below I list my impression/expectation regarding the Fireface and twinQ:

Fireface: My impression that it is transparent (similar to Aurora 8) vs Apogee Rosetta that adds color (according to some posts). I expect it to be adequate for when I use higher quality equipment: condenser in $1k-$2k range. Preamp upgrade in $2k-$4k range

twinQ: My impression is that this pre is a solid middle-of-the-road preamp for vocals as well as guitars and maybe modules. OK, maybe a preamp for modules is a bit of an overkill, but it is still something I want to experiment with. I expect it to still be an adequate preamp even alongside a more expensive one.

The idea is to avoid having to upgrade converter in next 5 years. Also to be able to upgrade to a great preamp (if need be) while keeping exiting preamp. At the same time have a wide enough "sweet spot" where I don't have to think too much about compensating for equipment to get the warm colorful sound.


My point:

I would like to see if my reasoning is on a right path - that I'm not missing something critical. Or perhaps I'm going off the deep end all and that equipment is an overkill. Please provide some suggestions if possible - even though I'm set on the described equipment, there is still part of my mind that is open. You wouldn't believe how many times I've reconsidered what to get in the past few weeks:D. Even after I was dead sure I wanted something or other, I'd come across some element that would make me change my mind.

Sorry for making this so long.
Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what you're looking for:

An essay on equipment overkill​

The subject of equipment overkill has been covered intensively by the world press over the past decade. Underestimate equipment overkill at your peril. Until recently considered taboo amongst polite society, it is yet to receive proper recognition for laying the foundations of democracy. Inevitably equipment overkill is often misunderstood by those most reliant on technology, trapped by their infamous history. In the light of this I will break down the issues in order to give each of them the thought that they fully deserve

Social Factors

As Reflected in classical mythology society is complicated. When Sir Bernard Chivilary said 'hounds will feast on society' [1] he was clearly refering to the impact of equipment overkill on today's society. Much has been said about the influence of the media on equipment overkill. Observers claim it cleary plays a significant role amongst the developing middle classes.

Some analysts have been tempted to disregard equipment overkill. I haven�t. Just as a dog will return to its own sick, society will return to equipment overkill, again and again.

Economic Factors

The dictionary defines economics as 'the social science concerned with the production, distribution, exchange, and consumption of goods and services'. Of course, equipment overkill fits perfectly into the Fish-Out-Of-Water model, a lovely model.
Oil
Prices

equipment overkill

Indisputably there is a link. How can this be explained? Recent studies indicate that oil prices will continue to follow equipment overkill for the foreseeable future. What it all comes down to is money. Capitalists love equipment overkill.

Political Factors

The media have made politics quite a spectacle. Comparing the general view of politics held by the poor of the west with those of the east can be like comparing playing with a puppy and singing with a blackbird.

It is always enlightening to consider the words of that most brilliant mind Esperanza Rock 'People in glass houses shouldn't through parties.' [2] What a fantastic quote. Perhaps the word which sums up the importance of equipment overkill to politics is 'participation'.
I hope, for our sake that equipment overkill will endure.

Conclusion

We can say with certainty equipment overkill plays a large part in the lives of all. It enlightens our daily lives, invades where necessary, though equipment overkill brings with it obvious difficulties, it is truly equipment overkill.

I will leave you with the words of Hollywood's Leonardo Pfeiffer: 'It's been nice educating you.' [3]

[1] Sir Bernard Chivilary - Interestingly... - 1904 Badger Books

[2] Rock - Roll It Up - 1977 - F. Lower Publishing

[3] Get On The Bus - Issue 321 - Media Books
 
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