Mackie Onyx 1640 or Soundcraft M12 or Allen & heath MixWizard...

Which should I buy?

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I've got a Mackie Onyx 1640 at the club, and recently bought an Allen&Heath WZ3 14:4:2 for my own personal use. I mainly do live jazz recordings and FOH at the club, and later mix ITB (Digital Performer).

Both mixers sound very well, although I didn't buy the Firewire option for the Onyx, recording through MOTU interfaces instead. I think that the eq in the MixWizard is quite better.

When considering a mixer for my personal kit, I thought about the Soundcraft M12, a Mackie Onyx and the A&H. Midas and Crest were out of the question because the cost is much higher :)

I discarded the M12 quickly once I had a look at the block diagram. The "direct" outs are post-eq. Moreover the Soundcraft doesn't have individual phantom switches. Both the 14:4.2 and the Mackie have eq-bypass switches.

Both have a very good dynamic range, although I've used the A&H much less than the Onyx. The latter has really withstood some funny trumpeteers blowing hard with the mic almost inside the trumpet. Haven't done the test with the A&H yet, but doing some tests I've found the available headroom to be similar.

The A&H is very configurable. The direct outs can be pre-eq, post-eq+pre-fader or post-fader just by moving a pair of jumpers. The subgroups and master faders can be converted to aux masters, so it can be used as a monitor, FOH and recording desk.

The Mackie has pre-everything direct outs, while (curiously) the MixWizard's outs are *always* post-HPF.

And the build quality of the A&H is lightyears ahead of the Onyx. I know I've paid a lot just to have individual circuit boards with all the potentiometers bolted to the strong steel chassis, but I use the Onyx every Thursday and sometimes I feel like I might to break a potentimeter if I'm not careful. Not that I bang them (and I never leave anything on them) but the feeling is important.

Moreover, the Onyx has 60 mm. faders with a horrible feel, and the A&H has 100 mm faders with (imho) a good feeling. Perhaps too smooth, as it seems you can make them slide just by looking at them, but I prefer that anyway :)

For live work, the Mackie has a cool feature: you have a switch that selects the monitor bus as pre or post fader. I've used it once to carefully balance two singers by sending them to the PFL bus, and making it post-fader instead of pre-fader.

I've got easy access to both desks (1640 and 14:4:2), so, if anyone has any questions I will happily help.

Oh, the 14:4:2 is a bit easier to move around than the 1640.
 
Fact & Opinions are very different..............

BROJAM.......I enjoyed your review of these 2 mixers. It sounded like a real honest evaluation. Not like you were trying to unload your stuff on everybody else, like some of the reviews read.

Thanks Choctaw
 
borjam said:
The Mackie has pre-everything direct outs, while (curiously) the MixWizard's outs are *always* post-HPF.
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I don't know when people started (understandably) equating Insert I/O with Direct Outs, but they are distinct. Insert I/O gives you access to the individual preamp and trim and is generally pre-fader. Direct outs give you post-fader access to the whole individual channel strip---including the insert I/O. I don't usually see manufacturers refer to Inserts as Direct Outs---it's something that users do. When a board comes equipped with both, the differences are noted by the manufacturer and pointed out to the user. The fact that A-H allows their channel I/O an unusual degree of user configuration, in addition to being a great-sounding tank of a product, certainly was a selling point for me, even if I don't reconfigure from the typical pre/post setup. It told me something about their philosophy towards their equipment and their customers. I can't wait until they start doing digital I/O.



Paj
8^)
 
Paj said:
I don't know when people started (understandably) equating Insert I/O with Direct Outs, but they are distinct. Insert I/O gives you access to the individual preamp and trim and is generally pre-fader. Direct outs give you post-fader access to the whole individual channel strip---including the insert I/O.
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Of course everything depends on the type of mixer and configuration. But for compact mixers used for live sound it makes a lot of sense to have pre-eq and pre-insert direct outs so that I can record a concert without worrying about eq and effects I might need for the live sound.

Of course, the truly professional way to do this is to use good microphone splitters, but we're talking about low-cost (or reasonable cost) equipment ;)

Having a look at the diagram of the Midas Venice, I see the options are similar to the A&H.

But, at least in my case, I prefer a mixer delivering the cleanest possible signal to the audio interface :)
 
Hollowdan said:
The Allen and heath mix wizard can be had for ALOT less if you buy the one that says "Phonic" on it ;) Phonic made the mix wizard for allen and heath. Also the Phonic version is less than half the price (and the same board)
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Hard to believe. Probably simply the cost of the components inside a MixWizard is higher than the end-user price of the Phonic :)

I haven't opened mine yet, but it has a balanced output option for the aux and matrix outputs, and they give two part numbers for the integrated circuits: One of them is Analog Devices, the other is Burr-Brown. Not my idea of a cheap IC :D Of course it's a great marketing tactic to use mediocre components, leaving those references in the manual so that unsuspecting users think that *all* of the components are high-quality ones :D

The cost of putting 16 PCBs inside the chassis, bolting all the potentiometers, is much higher than the cost of aligning the potentimeters with the top chassis and just screwing it in place.

A&H could have Phonic manufacture their desks. Actually some ranges are manufactured in China. But no matter how cheap your labor is, some components are expensive, and some assembly methods are quite laborious.
 
I have been running the 1640 for both live gigs and as my studio interace. We have had little to know trouble with it, even though it has had a great deal of abuse on the road. No breakdowns as of yet, even after some outside gigs where the weather turned nasty in a hurry. The preamps are very transparent, and for live work the EQ with sweapable mids is great. I really love the pre's. We have a number of different pres available to us at the one studio I go to, but we still use the onboard, and track via firewire into cubase. To improve the live tracking environment, We will be adding a Mackie headphone amp that should give us up to five at least mono mixes from the board, so we will have alot better listening setup. Since I mix in the box, the stereo out isn't that much of a problem. So all in all I have to say I have had nothing but good luck with this board.
 
Hollowdan said:
The Allen and heath mix wizard can be had for ALOT less if you buy the one that says "Phonic" on it ;) Phonic made the mix wizard for allen and heath. Also the Phonic version is less than half the price (and the same board)
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Phonic also builds Neve consoles. I love mine, so open and natural sounding.........
 
the Mix wizards have good pre's for tracking. I think the onyx to me looks like a better summing mixer. So if you just software mixing I would go Mix wizard.

I have one(MW) and the pre's are fairly good. The direct outs can be jumpered for pre eq and pre fader.

If your analag mixing from your DAW then the onyx would be a good choice. You would definatley want the 16 channel version at least. It has meters on all channels and solo buttons. Also a Built in talk back mic.

Always look at the block diagram of the mixers your looking at to make sure the routing is to your liking because they are different.
 
I have an Onyx 1640 mixer / firewire card and it's worth every penny I paid for it. I'm a very happy camper, particularly with the preamps and with the routing capabilities. The firewire (and the analog channel taps) takes signal post preamp, but prior to anything else; no eq and no fader. The channel trim will affect the recorded signal. This reflects a philosophy that the best recorded signal will involve the shortest signal chain, and perhaps that because the mixer is intended for live use, anyone using the Onyx preamp for recording is likely to have pretty decent outboard eq anyway. So running the recorded signal through the mixer, even if eq is not active, will add noise. This arrangement yields the purest signal possible.

When I first set the card up using Windows XP, I had problems with signal recognition. I learned that Microsoft's SP2 fix has a bug that introduces instability in the firewire transfer rate; the diagnostics will look fine but there will be no signal. There is a patch available (search "firewire" on the MS downloads site). I downloaded the patch and everything woke up all of a sudden like it was Christmas morning. No problems since.
 
I have the Soundcraft M8 and I have to say this board sounds NICE! It is very clean and quiet and is superb value for money! I notice that Mackie have recently brought out the VLZ3 mixers. I spoke to one of their engineers the other day and he said they sound indistinguishable from the onyx but a bit cheaper? If that's the case then the M8 may at last have some competition for value for money!
 
therage! said:
The A&H places each channel on it's own circuit board. Think about that for a minute. You ever have a problem with "one" channel and you can replace just that channel's board. Nice design there. The A&H has switchable pre/post fader direct outs.

I would go and download the manuals on these units and read every page before making a decision. The Mackie firewire option is a nice idea but it's converters are not up to something like a Delta 1010, EMU or the Mackie 400F.
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soundcraft each channel is on its own circuit board as well.
 
Keep in mind that even with an Allen Heath it is not nearly as simple as pulling a channel and sending it in. More often than not if you do that, it will void the warranty and you will still have to send the whole console in for repairs. Just having a channel on its own circuit board does not really make the console modular. On nicer consoles the channels are truly modular and with two screws you can release them form their sockets. Many other modular consoles also use floating ribbon cables and you can pull the channel fader and meter seperately and just have to release a few ribbon cables. Personally, I like the ribbon cable solution the best for consoles that do not get trucked around a lot. It is definately more tedious, but I like the ability to move things and track problems.
 
Time to complete my comment made long ago about the Mackie Onyx (I have a 1640 at the jazz club) and my own mixer, the A&H Mixwizard3 14:4:2.

Finally I had time to take my mixer to the club and use it instead of the Mackie Onyx, and it turns out the difference is bigger than I expected.

The EQ in the A&H is much, much better. For instance, we cannot have a real piano there and we use a Yamaha electric piano which hasn't a great sound. When I've recorded it I need to do some black magic to give it some breadth.

The Onyx EQ sounds a bit harsh when I try to bump up the high frequencies, but the A&H is perfect for this. To start with, the two semiparametric mids have a wider frequency range to work. The low-mids start at 35 Hz, and the high-mids end at 15 KHz. The high-mid filter is very good to add some definition to the transients but without boosting all the treble, and with that particular issue the difference between the A&H and the Mackie is huge.

I have also a bad mains supply there, with some high-frequency noise and the A&H resists it better. I have some issues with the reverb I have there (TC Electronic M300) and I get some noise through the unbalanced sends and returns with the Onyx. The A&H behaved much better.

Moreover, some people told me it was the best sound overall they had heard at the club. I know, not all the groups sound equal despite what you do (and it's much more dramatic with jazz!) but yes, if I had to buy a new mixer for the club it would be the A&H and not the Onyx.

The Mackie Onyx is a fine mixer and I'm happy with it, but I prefer the A&H. Yes, the 14:4:2 is a bit more expensive than the Onyx 1640, and it's just 10 mono inputs and 4 stereo inputs (it has no aux returns labeled as such, the stereo inputs are supposed to be used for that) and 4 subgroups, while the Onyx has 16 mono inputs with the first two including a high-Z input for instrument, plus 3 stereo aux returns, so the A&H is quite more expensive given the number of mic preamps.
 
O1v96

I have a Mackie 1642-VLZPRO got it in 83 still works great.

Have played with the A & H boards they do have great sound.

Was looking at 24 x 8 x 2 Mackie board. (wanted more subs). Or some other board that will fit the need. A&H etc.

I use a RME audio Fireface 800 and one Octa Mic D for recording.

Ended up with a Yamaha O1V96 digital board in a nut shell its a 32 X 8 X 2 with 8 auxs.
12 mic in 2 stereo inputs plus a spdif input the extra channels you need a expansion card
It has a 2 in and 2 out ADAT card installed in it so I have it hooked up the the RME gear for extra inputs plus outputs when needed. when patched for Direct out it can be post gain post EQ or post fader.

It also has a gate / comp / 4 band parametric EQ on most of the 32 channels some channels do not have the gate.

The preamps do not sound bad at all and its very small to the same size as my Mackie board. can be rack mounted. Very versatile board for the cost.

Very happy the way it works.

My 2 KW's
 
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FWIW, i bought a 1640 in march 06, and had 2 of them fail on me recently.

the 1st one lasted until last november...then i fired it up one day, and the meters on all the channels(including the master) starting bouncing as though i was running a click track through every one of them with the gain all the way up...hell, it even made a noise like a click track

of course i sent it in because it was still under warranty...mackie sent me a refurb unit, which i was cool with since mine was almost 3 years old. then the refurb unit started making a constant whining, similar to a 2k sine wave, from all of the outputs

they had me send that unit to a repair center..after being there for a month, the guys from the repair place called and told me the part they needed was on backorder 10-12 weeks. then i called mackie, who called the repair place, and set up for me to get another replacement unit sent out...it's been another week or so, and still no board

hopefully the 3rd one holds up better than the previous ones did, especially seeing that the warranty has expired
 
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