Looking in to live vocal effects, need some advice.

Z

Zillah

New member
I am thinking about a tc. helicon create xt.
Had a VoiceLive, and it was too clunky and finnicky. I don't like the digitech vocal 300, 'cause it's a messy signal. A friend of mine has a lexicon mx 200 which sounds really nice, but it's a rack unit.

If The unit doesn't have an xlr in, I lose db, unless I go through my eq/boost pedal, or alesis 3630 rack compressor. I want rich, dynamic effects which are easy to program, at least two at once, the precedence going to quality delay and reverb.

I play experimental/glitchy music, leaning towards industrial. A bit of saturation/compression might be nice, and I am open to rack effects, but it would have to be simple to navigate and change during a set.

My price range is $200-300. Thanks!
 
Look for a used TC Electronics M-one XL. Should be right around that price range.

It's a rack mount but you can add a foot switch.
 
moresound said:
Look for a used TC Electronics M-one XL. Should be right around that price range.

It's a rack mount but you can add a foot switch.
Click to expand...

Alright! I am actually doing a touch of research on that now! Do you know how it might differ in versatility or quality from other units, such as a lexicon mx 200? I'm looking for video demos of the M-one XL, but mostly guitar demos are coming up on youtube, rather than vocals.
 
It has a few guitar settings but is mainly for vocals.

It's a duel engine with 199 factory presets that aren't that bad and you can tweak them. Has room for 100 user settings.

Best of all (for in your case) XLR in and out of both engines Left and right! Nothing a XLR Y jack wouldn't take care of on the in side from your microphone then the two channels out to the PA.
 
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Sounds really good! I still can't seem to find any videos of people singing through it, though...
How would you rate the quality of the reverbs and delays? What about the interface? Could I dial in a preset, or switch between them easily between songs? Is there a tap tempo button on the face for me to switch up the delay tempo?

I usually prefer to test gear before purchasing it, and I might see if my local sam ash has one.
 
Funny we toured with my wife singing through a digitech vocal 300 and we got a great sound, none of the sound engineers complained. We used it for subtle reverbs, chorus and pitch shift effects. We did have some problems with the foot switches not clicking but a small mod I did fixed that.

Alan.
 
+1 for Henry's recommendation of the TC M-One XL. It's pretty much my favourite live sound effects box. The reverbs have a nice natural sound and, with a bit of practice, the controls are pretty easy to follow.

The only other one to watch out for might be a used Yamaha SPX 990 or 2000. Again, nice units.
 
Zillah said:
Sounds really good! I still can't seem to find any videos of people singing through it, though...
How would you rate the quality of the reverbs and delays? What about the interface? Could I dial in a preset, or switch between them easily between songs? Is there a tap tempo button on the face for me to switch up the delay tempo?

I usually prefer to test gear before purchasing it, and I might see if my local sam ash has one.
Click to expand...


Yes ... it is of superb verb and delay quality. Quick preset changeability. And has a tempo tap button.
 
arcaxis said:
Will this have enough gain for a mic directly plugged into the XLR? I'm thinking he may not have much in the way of outboard gear to give the mic some boost before it hits an effects box. The TC Helicon Voicelive he had does have a mic pre in it with phantom as well.
Click to expand...

Hmmm...I didn't twig to this. I wonder if the OP does mean "mic level input" when he says "XLR"? For future reference, XLR and MIc Level are NOT the same thing as a lot of professional gear uses XLR even for Line Level.

...in which case, the answer is "no". The inputs on the M One XL are purely for line level. The "normal" way to use effects processors is on an Aux or Insert output of a mixer and the M One XL assumes this is the way things will work.
 
I've had a lot of vocalist use an XLR to TRS to go from the microphone to a stomp box effect before - then TRS into a Di box - then out XLR to the console.
Maybe I should have payed more attention but that seamed to work.
 
I've got a mixer I usually run through before going out to a p.a., and I'm not looking to boost my signal particularly, merely to compensate for the db loss associated with converting an xlr signal to trs or ts. (Although mono, many guitar pedals I've used have some trouble with trs inputs, because guitar gear is primarily ts.) Whether an xlr to 1/4" cable, or a converter at the end, I lose a good deal of volume lining down a size, and if I'm using a rack unit with a 1/4" in jack, I'm wondering if I'll have to push the signal a bit.

The M-one xl is xlr, so at the same volume as a mic, I should be fine.
I'll do some research in to the Yamaha SPX 990 as well- the 2000 seems a bit out of my price range.

The 'tone' button on the create xt is a neat little benefit, and the form factor and price makes it a pretty convenient choice. I would like to be able to get a bit of an edgy sound, if I can. Around 1:40 of this video has an example of some fairly processed screamy industrial vocals from a larger band in the genre. Sounds like an awkward doubling or slapback delay, with a bit of chorus and pitch, perhaps, along with compression and maybe a bit of eq and sculpting. I'm rather impressed by this. (Apparently I can not post links, because I have not posted enough. Youtube - " Psyclon Nine - We The Fallen live ", top result.
 
No. Sorry but you're operating under some major misconceptions here.

The connector on the end of the cable has nothing to do with the level of that signal. The level is set by the gear feeding the signal.

There are two main "levels" in the audio world: Line Level and Microphone level. Line level tends to come from mains powered gear and is the normal signal level used within mixers and other signal processors.

Microphone level, as the name implies, is what comes out of a mic. It's a vastly lower level than line--typically about -50 or -60dB compared to line level. That's why the input to mixers, audio interfaces, etc. always runs through a mic pre amp at the very first stage. The pre amp is often built in so you don't know it's there but it has to be.

(There's a third "level"...instrument level...which is half way between the two above. It tends to be the output of electric guitars and is also a different impedance than mic or line.)

As I mentioned, the connector on the cable makes no difference to the level. Yes, particularly in the home recording market, XLR usually means microphone and TRS means line. However, it doesn't have to work this way and, when you get to truly professional gear, XLRs are often used for both microphone and line level. I suspect this is because an XLR can lock, giving an extra safety feature when you don't want breakdown.

More uncommon, you could also use a TRS for a mic--but this is rarely done because phantom power on a TRS could cause shorts. It has nothing to do with levels.

Anyway, the XLR inputs on the M One XL are line level, not mic. I just double checked the spec and a 0dBVU input (i.e. line level) gives a 0dB output.

All is not lost though. You mention you have a mixer--if you route your voice to the effects unit using a post fade aux, this will give you the levels you need and a lot of flexibility to balance between dry and wet signals.

Hope this helps.
 
Damn! Just typed a pretty involved response... This site keeps making me log in again...

Using a samson q7, (Dynamic) so no need for phantom power, right? This question is largely for live vocal effects, so getting a condenser to work well is tertiary.

My result is backwards from the 'line level' being higher than the 'mic level', because when my xlr is converted to 1/4', it is inserted in to the line input and it is considerably quieter.
Three methods I've tried- first, a 500 ohm to 50k ohm converter, xlr to 1/4" ts. Second, my friend's Optimus mic, also 500 ohm, which is attached to a cable which outputs to male 1/4", also ts. The third is an xlr to 1/4" cable, which I've tried in music stores. I can not recall if that was ts or trs. I usually default to ts because of how finnicky guitar effects pedals are with trs cables. Might ts vs trs decrease the signal's output?

My mixer is a yamaha mw 10, and although I can use it's effects send/return, I am very new to aux functions.

Thank you all for your advice so far! I'm still looking for demo vids of the tc electronics m one xl being used on vocals...
 
No. A cable or a connector CANNOT increase or decrease an output level.

Really, really you have to stop thinking in terms of connectors and consider mic level vs. line level.

Yes, when you convert your XLR to quarter inch and insert into a line input it'll be considerably quieter--because you're still putting mic level (say about -50dBVU) into a line level input which is expecting a signal around 0dBVU. This means you're give it about 50dB less signal than it's designed for.

And no, your dynamic mic doesn't need phantom. Sorry to confuse--I was just trying to explain why XLRs are commonly used for line level but TRS almost never for microphones.
 
Alright, so mic level and line level are not dictated by the corresponding input on a board or p.a., but from the source itself. (Mic for mic, something like a guitar for line.) Gotcha!
 
Yup. The source feeds at a certain level and the other end just takes what it gets (and sometimes complains if there's a mis-match!).
 
Alright, back on topic- what are your opinions of using a nice studio multi fx box like the m one xl, versus a tc helicon pedal unit which is specifically engineered for live play?

Example- the 'tone' button on the create xt, which does some compression/eq and brightens the vocal signal, cleaning it up in one easy button. Otherwise, I would need a rack compressor, rack eq, and a few other nice bits for a similar effect. Granted, I'd rather have the nice rack gear, and have my signal and effects sound more full and professional in the long run.

I've already got rack compression, and I personally find a lot of the tc helicon gear (rather than tc electric) somewhat gimmicky, in presentation and some elements of sound.
 
Very keen! Reading through the manual, and checking out the voicecouncil forum now.~.
I'll be heading to sam ash music tomorrow and scoping out whatever is in-house and available.

I've not actually been able to play with a create xt, and they are no longer in stock.
 
Just as an aside, I've never tried the TC Helicon so can't comment on that, but....

The vast majority of times I've encountered or used the M One XL it's been in a live sound situation so it's not really accurate to call it a "studio" effects unit. There are an awful lot of M One XLs travelling the world with tour gear just now!
 
Good call on the live rack unit, bobbsy!
@Arcaxis, I've looked in to the voicelive play, and actually picked up a super cheap tc helicon create (original, not xt) used recently.
The problems I have with Both is a lack of intuitive interface. The play has about two buttons, and a foot switch.
This create has five buttons, five knobs, and two footswitches, which should be fine, but it's set up with presets which are configured and 'stuck' how you get them, except that each preset allows you to change TWO parameters from each.

This means a track has a Set amount of Transducer, distortion, chorus, ect., and you can change, say, the reverb type, and the delay level. (But not the reverb amount, the delay feedback, the chorus amount, the transducer low-pass, or the distortion amount...) The presets aren't terrible, but the lack of control is counter-intuitive, and not made for musicians who like to customise their sound.

From what I understand about the xt, you can change your effects parameters, and turn delay, reverb, transducer, and umod on and off with dedicated buttons. Am I wrong on this? Can you change each parameter of every effect on the xt, or are you stuck with two parameters per preset on that as well?

Other suggestions are still much appreciated, I got the create pedal for $60 as a tide-me-over, because I couldn't pass up that sort of deal...
 
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