Little help on sound signals distribution

[robo]

Hello,
I do have a band (4 people: guitar, bass, drums, vocal) and in our reharsal room we do have a 4-auxes mixer, and each aux is connected to a headphone amplifier. Hence, each musician has a dedicated mix. However, more often than not it happens that one wants more of something (usually, more me or to modify some setting and you must access the mixer each time. I wanted to provide a way for each one to control his own mix where they are, even if not to a fully extent.

There are some commercial solutions out there like Hear Technology Hear Back System, or Behringer Powerplay P16 (I + 4M units) but I wanted to spend less. So let's assume each of us can use a behringer Micromix (or similar) which mixes 4 signals.

Is there a way to bring to each musician the same 4 signals at a reasonable price? In other words, if I get 4 signals out of the mixer (via direct out, sub, etc.) is there a way to "multiply" these signals 4 times and bring them to each musician? is there a patchbay or similar device that can act like that? It would be something like a switch for network use: you plug in a cable (a signal, in our case 4 of them) and the device transmits it on the other sockets (16: 4 x 4).

Any help is welcomed!
thanks,
Roberto

 

[ocnor]

Is there a way to bring to each musician the same 4 signals at a reasonable price? In other words, if I get 4 signals out of the mixer (via direct out, sub, etc.) is there a way to "multiply" these signals 4 times and bring them to each musician? is there a patchbay or similar device that can act like that? It would be something like a switch for network use: you plug in a cable (a signal, in our case 4 of them) and the device transmits it on the other sockets (16: 4 x 4).

The solution that you are describing is the 4 aux mixer and the headphone amps that you have set up now. Adding extra gear will not change the fact that you have to take a few minutes and adjust the mix for each person.

 

[robo]

The solution that you are describing is the 4 aux mixer and the headphone amps that you have set up now. Adding extra gear will not change the fact that you have to take a few minutes and adjust the mix for each person.

Ocnor,
thanks for your reply. Indeed I see what you mean, I just wanted to provide the musicians a faster way to handle their submix, rather than accessing the mixer itself. Let's forget the aux for a moment.

For example, I could route 4 outs from my mixer (e.g.: 1 drums, 1 guitar, 1 bass, 1 vocals submix) into 4 separate Behringer HA 400. This way I would have now 4 drums, 4 guitars, 4 bass and 4 vocals outs. I could now route each signal set (1 set being 1 drum + 1 guitar + 1 bass + 1 vocals) to a behringer MX 400 that each musician would have at hand distance. I wish there was a faster device (like an audio swicth 4 ins / 16 outs). Does this make sense?

Ciao
Roberto

 

[bouldersoundguy]

There are self-mixing systems for monitors but they're usually somewhat pricey. Maybe it would be easier to put the mixer in the middle where most of the players could reach it.

For a simple more-me setup try this: Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Products PM351 Personal Monitor System. Not only does it offer more-me for vocal and instrument it can be the direct box for the instrument if needed.

 

[ashcat_lt]

You can usually split a line level signal passively quite a few times before you notice any loss of level or change in response. That means you can use a bunch of Y cables, a few half-normalled patchbay modules, a box with a bunch of jacks wired together, or whatever to split those four signals out to 16. Then you have to figure out how to mix them back together closer to each person. This could probably be done passively (a box with a bunch of jacks wired together through resistors and pots). You would lose some level there, but hopefully the headphone amps would have enough gain to make up for it. Or like buy four cheap little four channel mixers somewhere.

The real problem, though, is selfish and unprofessional band members who don't want to and/or aren't used to hearing their instrument in the context of the mix. It's pretty common, but it's pretty crappy. Everybody likes to huddle up next to their amp or behind their drums where they can hear only the super awesome bullshit they're playing with maybe a little spill from the others and just expect that it'll fall together somehow. What they should be doing is listening to what they are contributing to the mix as a whole and playing to that because that's all that matters. If the mix is decent, and the headphones are loud enough, and you can't hear youself, then you're probably playing the wrong part, or at least need to re-evaluate the arrangement and your place in it.

Usually, if somebody asks for "more me" I just turn the whole thing up.

 

[robo]

There are self-mixing systems for monitors but they're usually somewhat pricey. Maybe it would be easier to put the mixer in the middle where most of the players could reach it.

For a simple more-me setup try this: Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Products PM351 Personal Monitor System. Not only does it offer more-me for vocal and instrument it can be the direct box for the instrument if needed.

Thanks! I see there is also a PS16 distrbution unit. I'll check it out carefully.

 

[robo]

You can usually split a line level signal passively quite a few times before you notice any loss of level or change in response. That means you can use a bunch of Y cables, a few half-normalled patchbay modules, a box with a bunch of jacks wired together, or whatever to split those four signals out to 16. Then you have to figure out how to mix them back together closer to each person. This could probably be done passively (a box with a bunch of jacks wired together through resistors and pots). You would lose some level there, but hopefully the headphone amps would have enough gain to make up for it. Or like buy four cheap little four channel mixers somewhere.

The real problem, though, is selfish and unprofessional band members who don't want to and/or aren't used to hearing their instrument in the context of the mix. It's pretty common, but it's pretty crappy. Everybody likes to huddle up next to their amp or behind their drums where they can hear only the super awesome bullshit they're playing with maybe a little spill from the others and just expect that it'll fall together somehow. What they should be doing is listening to what they are contributing to the mix as a whole and playing to that because that's all that matters. If the mix is decent, and the headphones are loud enough, and you can't hear youself, then you're probably playing the wrong part, or at least need to re-evaluate the arrangement and your place in it.

Usually, if somebody asks for "more me" I just turn the whole thing up.

Thanks! Just before getting your reply I was browsing through Y cables and figuring out an easy way to do it! Can you split a line after it has gone through the amplifier or will it lose level?

I have a 4-channel headphone amplifier (Behringer) which supports up to 12 outs (3 per channel). Each channel has its own aux (a more-me feature
So I guess I could feed the four signals to it (via the channels' aux), and have 3 times the same signals, but amplified. I could then split one with a Y cable and bring each player his own set (drums + bass + guitars + vocals). Each could mix his own thing through a micromix (4 ins/1 out).
Unless the signal loss would be relevant after the signal is amplified?...

Thanks for your advices on hearing the others. Lukily we don't have that. The real problem is that the mixer is really accessible but both the singer and the guitar player like to change things out without really knowing what they're doing. So they ask me (I'm the drummer, and can't access the knobs from my seat) and I either have to explain or stand and go to the mixer. So I guess they could take mixing lessons and that would also solve the issue!

 

[ashcat_lt]

That will work as long as everybody has a headphone amp after the micromix. You'd want to watch the levels coming out of that first "splitter" amp, but it should work well enough.

 

[ocnor]

I'm the drummer, and can't access the knobs from my seat

Well there is your problem. Move the mixer to a spot where you can access it...problem solved without spending any money.

 

[ashcat_lt]

One wonders...If these fuckers can't handle the big mixer, what happens when you give them each their own? I guess you don't have to deal with it cause they're only fucking up their own mixes.

I agree, though, that the problem is that you're a drummer.

 

[robo]

Thanks all for the feedback.

There is no room where I am to put the mixer, and they would constantly bugging me with requests -> no deal.
I would give them only access to a limited set of controls instead of equalization, gain, etc. and they would only do stuff to their own mix, yeah, not to everyone's.

In the end I will either split the signals from the mixer as I said or get some ROLLS PMS351 (which "split" the signals before sending them to the mixer).

Again, thanks a lot for your valuable inputs and yeah, being a drummer really sucks.

 

[ashcat_lt]

At a certain point I ended up with like five patchbays in my rack, but as I got away from outboard gear, and finally retired the mixer, I've gotten to where I only really need a couple. But they are all the type where the modules just pop out pretty easily so you can flip them around to change from half-normalled to full, and those little modules are among the most useful tools in my studio and live rigs!

They can be used to extend 1/4" cables which are always male on both ends. They also make a great way to split line level signals wherever you want. I've got four or five of them pretty much permanently installed in my studio and the "stage" downstairs. I have one on my pedalboard. I always carry a couple in my cable bag for live shows...

I wouldn't really suggest buying a new patchbay just to tear it apart. But the things usually have 24 of the modules, and if you happen to not need all of those for your rig, you can just pop the extras out. Or, like, if you found a used one for super cheap or something...

 

[rob aylestone]

You seem to want a solution that has to mean more adjustment of a more limited amount of sources.

If you have a big mixer with 4 auxes, then that means 4 separate mixes - one for each of four people. If you want to give them individual control, then the personal mixers need to have enough inputs to allow each person to balance what they need - so if there are 4 band members who all sing and play, then you need at least 8 channel distribution and 8 channel mixers. With just 4 people your 4 auxes can handle as many sources as the mixer has?

I'm not sure I agree with the comments on not needing individual mixes, as if it's something unnecessary and unprofessional? This is clearly just not correct. For a musician or singer to perform their best, they need to hear specifics. A singer may need the keys part because that is what they are pitching to, and the bass guitar prevents them hearing what they need. Maybe you have two BV singers - they will need to hear the lead singer, and each other. The lead singer may not want to hear them at all! This is NOT musicians being pedantic, it's important. I'd suggest anyone who just thinks you can play to anything really hasn't been around enough musicians. Many, especially classical musicians, cannot play with both ears inside headphones. String players need to hear themselves separated from the others. Try telling them that they can't have it. Most bands need certain things, they'd like to have others, and a few things are just nice touches. If a band have experienced decent adjustable monitoring, then any engineer explaining they don't need it gets put in the "idiot - don't use again" category. Many engineers think they know better and just do things. Frequently messing it up during a good take.Very common for something in the mix to the headphone to suddenly change - like the piano suddenly dropping in level, or having it's eq changed. Some singer need reverb, others don't. Engineers who simply do not know how to route reverb to headphones, but not record it.

In most cases, they seem to think they are the producer and 'in charge'. Sometimes this may be the case, of course, but in a paid for session, the client is the boss, and if a band ask for something that you can do, then saying no seems a bit strong to me. Of course, dipping the phones level, raising it again and saying "how is that?" will satisfy the real prima donnas - but annoy people who really do know what they're doing.

 

[robo]

Again, thanks for your feeback. I've probably should have described our set-up better in the first place. I will remedy now. We play for fun, attached a couple of pictures of our reharsal room. I designed and built it and I'm quite proud of it. There is four of us: a drummer, a guitar player, a bass player, a singer. Each of the musicians also sings bg vocals.

In the middle of the room (covered by a black dust cover in the pic) there is a Behringer 2442fx (now I know many of you are turning up their noses, but hey). The drums are all mic'd and all cables go to 2 x M-Audio Profire 2626 in the control room (behind the window) that I use to record (protools 8). I use two Profire outs to send to the room mixer a stereo mix of the drums. So the channels of the room mixer I am using are: 1-vox, 2-guitar (from amp), 3-bass (DI), 4-gp vox, 5-bp vox, 6-d vox, 7+8 stereo drums. The 2442fx uses the 3rd aux to manage the on-board fx section. Three of us got a TC mic mechanics for vocals. So I could use all 4 aux sends for 4 individual mixes by turning off the on-board fx section. The 4 auxes would go into a phone amplifier (Behringer powerplay4600) which has 4 channels (each with his own aux) and supports 12 outs. So far we've been feeding the amplifier our whole stereo mix + individual aux for the more-me feature (the unit has a general/aux knob to balance each channel whole/more-me signal).

This is when I posted the help request. Using 4 auxes to send 4 individual mixes works, no problem, except what I said: the singer and guitar player love to turn and touch the faders and knobs and they usually make one mess or two No big deal, but I was nevertheless looking for something that would allow them to manage their own mix. Also, the fx section in this configuration had to be turned off.

Since when I posted the msg, the singer has also pointed out that he would still love to have a reverb 100% of the time + turning delay off/on with his pedal. This added one difficulty: using the on-board fx to provide the reverb and still deliver 4 independent mixes.

I guess this could be accomplished by using 3 auxes to provide 3 individual mixes and 1 subgroub to provide the fourth. After all, we do not really need the main out. The 3rd aux would be used to send the signal to the onboard fx section. The stereo fx out from the back of the mixer would be fed to one stereo channel on front to add the on board fx to the aux phone mixes.

By studying all of your suggested solutions, I also ended up discovering digital mixers and the Behringer XR18: for 750 Eur, it provides 16 XLR ins and 6 auxes (this might come handy as we're planning to add 1 guitar player for live gigs). The unit would give wireless access to each musician who, with his phone, could control individual channels' levels of his aux send. I'm also considering this option.

Again, thank you very much for your help!

P.s.: of course all mixes would be mono, whereas the main out + individual aux was stereo. No big deal. Plus the Powerplay power amplifier has a "mono" switch to allow the signal to be put dead center as opposed to 100% left or right.