Hybrid studio routing help

P

PlatinumAudio

New member
Hey guys,

I'm an ITB guy as far as mixing has been concerned, but now I'm going hybrid I have some routing confusion I'd appreciate help with!

I use Cubase 7.5, which allows hardware processors to be used as plugin "inserts" and I do understand how to set them up. Where I get confused is outside the box, because I don't have a mixer.

I have a 500 series rack that offers only XLR inputs and outputs (two sets per channel).
I have a 16 channel format converter with DB25 I/O.

So evidently, I have no immediate way of creating insert connections, but I am also struggling visualising the best solution and this is where I'd greatly appreciate suggestions for how to set this all up!

Basically, I will have pre-amps in one rack, which I will just connect directly via XLR/DB25, and all signal processing modules in another rack, which I would like to interface with Cubase as inserts.


Many thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Dylan
 
Your interface should have several analog outputs. Route the effect send you want, on a given channel, to one of the analog outs. Run a cable from the analog out to the in of whatever effect you want. Then run the output of that effect back into your interface via one of the analog ins. That's it. There will be latency for sure but you can record the return and move it or try to dick around with getting latency compensation to work for you as long as you are working during playback, not while recording. Having a quality patch bay makes it so much easier, I would suggest Switchcraft. Don't waste money on a crappy patch bay. By the way, db25 carries 8 channels of balanced signal so you will either need another db25 to trs/xlr snake or deal with individual cables.
 
cafehonda said:
There will be latency for sure...
Click to expand...

If that were true then every input would be offset on the timeline relative to the previously recorded tracks.

If someone really wants to learn about hybrid mixing then recording.org is the place to go, but the fashion there is moving toward "decoupled" mixing where the 2-channel mix from one DAW is sent in real time to the DAC, the output of which is routed to the input of an ADC on another computer without clocking any converters together.
 
Thanks for the replies.

This is how I have things routed at the moment (the same as recommended):

Cubase Hardware FX Mono Bus: SEND CH7, RTRN: CH7
Madison (16 CH converter): OUTPUT DB25 -> 8 channel XLR snake - CH7 XLR connected to input of XLR CH 7 on rack.
OUTPUT of CH7 of rack connected by 8 channel snake XLR to DB25 - CH7 INPUT.

Then I insert the hardware FX onto the track in Cubase and the problems begin.

My suspicion is that the routing in Totalmix FX is creating a second monitoring signal somewhere. I'm yet to learn how to use Totalmix properly, but I shall have to look into it!
 
Just to clarify. The distinction is in the definition of "insert". Typically an insert is a send/return loop along a single TRS cable, where the tip and ring are used to differentiate the send and return signals.

The point at which I became confused was when a Steinberg rep told me that my hadware doesn't support "inserts" (as per the above definition) and that is what Cubase is looking for. I honestly can't comprehend how a DAW could expect an insert, given the send signal is being passed via a DAC and the return signal can't be returned through a DAC again. It needs a ADC channel. Hence why I connected it as such - it is the only physical possibility.

So basically, I should ignore the tech's advice and continue working with the CH7OUT/CH7IN routing and try to find the issue within Totalmix?
 
In your hardware FX VST plugin, see if you can tell it which outputs and inputs on your interface to use as sends/returns. You don't want to use the same channel for input and output (that kinda sounds like what you're doing above, using CH7 for both send and return). Your tech is right, your hardware (most likely) doesn't have inserts. You're using TotalMix, so I assume that you're using an RME interface...I didn't recognize the other pieces of gear that you mentioned.

In my case, to route a signal from my interface to an external hardware compressor, I do this (forgive the terminology difference since we're using different DAWs):
- Add ReaInsert as an insert effect on a track (substitute Cubase's equivalent VST)
- In the configuration for that VST, tell it to use my interface's Analog output #3 as a send, and analog input #7 as a return.
- Connect my interface's analog output #3 to my compressor's input
- Connect my interface's analog input #7 to my compressor's output
- In TotalMix, click on Software Playback #3/4 (middle row), click on the little wrench and disable the stereo button (I want software outputs 3 and 4 to be individual mono outputs, not a stereo pair).
- In TotalMix, click on Hardware Outputs #3/4 (bottom row), and set these to mono as well. Make sure the panning is centered (might be hard left/right as a side-effect of them previously being a stereo pair)
- In TotalMix, click on Hardware Output #3 and make sure that EVERYTHING in the top and middle rows except Software Playback #3 (middle row) has its fader set to -infinity. Set Software Playback #3 fader to 0 (or whatever is appropriate)

Those last few steps in TotalMix had me pulling my hair out at one point. This is what allows the signal to flow from whatever you chose as your "hardware FX" SEND through an analog output on your interface (hardware analog output #3 in my example).

The path back in should be simpler...just treat it like you would any other line-level signal that you record. Plug the compressor's output into Analog input #7 on your interface and adjust the input level to whatever is appropriate.

Jeez...reading back over this, it sounds a lot harder than it really is. As long as your "hardware FX" VST allows you to choose your send/return on your actual hardware interface, you should be able to take it from there.
 
Thanks a lot for going to the trouble of explaining all that, mate.

Firstly, yes my hardware definitely does NOT have insert points; only line level inputs and outputs, like the vast majority of format converters. When I think of inserts, I think of a console/mixer that has a single female socket that expects to receive a TRS connection that is split with an insert Y cable for the send and return paths. It interrupts the signal path and returns the processed signal back into the path at the same point it left. With a typical line level converter, the only way for it to return to the DAW is through a ADC channel. It's not possible to send it back through the DAC it came out of.

I was essentially doing the same as you - up until you started calibrating Totalmix. Having the send on CH7OUT and the return on CH7IN is the same as CH3OUT,CH5IN. The inputs and outputs are independent of one another - many manufacturers exploit this fact and advertise a 16 I/O interface as 32 channels (16+16). I guess having different numbers makes it easier to follow the signal chain though.

So, next stop for me is going through your set-up check-list when I'm infront of my DAW and playing with Totalmix. To me, it makes zero sense to expect true insert connections between analogue and digital equipment to be a useful feature in a DAW that millions use without a full format console/mixer. A lot of the videos I watched while trying to understand demonstrate successful use of VST hardware FX insert routing without true insert connections, so I can only conclude that it's a routing issue in Totalmix. I will report back if I fix it!

Thanks again.



Tadpui said:
In your hardware FX VST plugin, see if you can tell it which outputs and inputs on your interface to use as sends/returns. You don't want to use the same channel for input and output (that kinda sounds like what you're doing above, using CH7 for both send and return). Your tech is right, your hardware (most likely) doesn't have inserts. You're using TotalMix, so I assume that you're using an RME interface...I didn't recognize the other pieces of gear that you mentioned.

In my case, to route a signal from my interface to an external hardware compressor, I do this (forgive the terminology difference since we're using different DAWs):
- Add ReaInsert as an insert effect on a track (substitute Cubase's equivalent VST)
- In the configuration for that VST, tell it to use my interface's Analog output #3 as a send, and analog input #7 as a return.
- Connect my interface's analog output #3 to my compressor's input
- Connect my interface's analog input #7 to my compressor's output
- In TotalMix, click on Software Playback #3/4 (middle row), click on the little wrench and disable the stereo button (I want software outputs 3 and 4 to be individual mono outputs, not a stereo pair).
- In TotalMix, click on Hardware Outputs #3/4 (bottom row), and set these to mono as well. Make sure the panning is centered (might be hard left/right as a side-effect of them previously being a stereo pair)
- In TotalMix, click on Hardware Output #3 and make sure that EVERYTHING in the top and middle rows except Software Playback #3 (middle row) has its fader set to -infinity. Set Software Playback #3 fader to 0 (or whatever is appropriate)

Those last few steps in TotalMix had me pulling my hair out at one point. This is what allows the signal to flow from whatever you chose as your "hardware FX" SEND through an analog output on your interface (hardware analog output #3 in my example).

The path back in should be simpler...just treat it like you would any other line-level signal that you record. Plug the compressor's output into Analog input #7 on your interface and adjust the input level to whatever is appropriate.

Jeez...reading back over this, it sounds a lot harder than it really is. As long as your "hardware FX" VST allows you to choose your send/return on your actual hardware interface, you should be able to take it from there.
Click to expand...
 
I should've mentioned my hardware more specifically. In case you're interested or it helps:

Interface: RME HDSPe MADI FX (PCI-e)
Converter: SPL Madison 16 channel MADI converter (modified by BLA)

The Madison has four 8-channel DB25 connections on the back; 2 for inputs and 2 for outputs. I have DB25 to XLR-M and DB25 to XLR-F snakes that I use to connect 8 channels of my 500 series rack. The Madison then sends all channels via one duplex MADI cable to the RME PCI-e card.

Cheers
 
Sorry for my confusing reply, I overlooked that you are looking for an insert path not routing for external effects after the fact.
 
PlatinumAudio said:
Just to clarify. The distinction is in the definition of "insert". Typically an insert is a send/return loop along a single TRS cable, where the tip and ring are used to differentiate the send and return signals.

The point at which I became confused was when a Steinberg rep told me that my hadware doesn't support "inserts" (as per the above definition) and that is what Cubase is looking for. I honestly can't comprehend how a DAW could expect an insert, given the send signal is being passed via a DAC and the return signal can't be returned through a DAC again. It needs a ADC channel. Hence why I connected it as such - it is the only physical possibility.

So basically, I should ignore the tech's advice and continue working with the CH7OUT/CH7IN routing and try to find the issue within Totalmix?
Click to expand...
That sort of insert is used on inexpensive mixers. (The single trs inserts) On high end boards, it is a separate balanced input and output.

Anyway, you need to connect an output to a processors input. Then the output of the processor to an input on the interface. Just route the cubase inserts to those ins ands outs.

The latency will be taken care of by the daw.
 
Farview said:
That sort of insert is used on inexpensive mixers. (The single trs inserts) On high end boards, it is a separate balanced input and output.

Anyway, you need to connect an output to a processors input. Then the output of the processor to an input on the interface. Just route the cubase inserts to those ins ands outs.

The latency will be taken care of by the daw.
Click to expand...

Still haven't had much of a chance to fiddle around, but I'm glad to have this insert thing cleared up! None of that stuff about Cubase expecting a Y type insert made sense to me.

Obviously I'm routing something wrong on the software level.
 
Go to devices->vst connections and click on the external.effects tab. That is where you set up the ins and outs for the external effects
 
Guys I ended up fixing it! Because I'm presently set up in a temporary space while rennovating the studio, I'm using headphones (which is why I'm just fiddling around with stuff and not working haha) and the way Totalmix FX was routed was such that it was outputting both the AES (which I used for monitoring previously) AND the Headphone output of the RME interface simultaneously. When working with a mono insert, it was presenting the processed audio as per the mono left (which I hadn't centred in Totalmix) and then the raw signal in stereo and the rest of the weird issues were artefacts of this problem.

Sorted! Thanks again :) Oh, I quickly put this together. I still need to work on send/return gain staging as you can clearly hear clipping as I push the bass boost:

 
"That sort of insert is used on inexpensive mixers. (The single trs inserts) On high end boards, it is a separate balanced input and output."

You beat me to it Jay!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
"That sort of insert is used on inexpensive mixers. (The single trs inserts) On high end boards, it is a separate balanced input and output."

You beat me to it Jay!

Dave.
Click to expand...

Yes, the only inserts I've ever seen were separate fully balanced connections ... our studio insert patchbay is built around such a system.

But, when you receive advice from a product expert, you tend to put some faith in them ... bottom line is, it's not only sorted now, but I figured out how to use Totalmix haha :D
 
Hey, glad to hear that man! I learned just enough about TotalMix to do the routing that I need. I have barely scratched the surface of what it's capable of, it's a pretty deep little utility!
 
PlatinumAudio said:
Yes, the only inserts I've ever seen were separate fully balanced connections ... our studio insert patchbay is built around such a system.

But, when you receive advice from a product expert, you tend to put some faith in them ... bottom line is, it's not only sorted now, but I figured out how to use Totalmix haha :D
Click to expand...
Of course, the guy was confused, because you were using it as an insert in the software, not the hardware. He obviously thought that you were using a hardware mixer and trying to use the inserts on that.
 
Farview said:
Of course, the guy was confused, because you were using it as an insert in the software, not the hardware. He obviously thought that you were using a hardware mixer and trying to use the inserts on that.
Click to expand...

He had a full list of my hardware and a concise breakdown of all the existing routing etc. :/ Nevermind :guitar:
 
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