help with preamp questions

B

BenWV

New member
i tried this in newbies - didn't have much luck.

I've been recording for a while but I feel like this is a pretty dumb question. I'm recording onto a G4 with a motu 828 mk II using Digital Performer 5. I'm interested in upgrading my preamps and am looking for ways in which to do this. I was initially looking at the Mackie onyx series or the True Precision series, but after reading more I feel I might be ahead just buying a higher end stereo preamp. My question is, how do you get the pre-amp into the computer without losing or altering the sound quality. Does it go through the line level on the motu ?? Just not quite sure what to do here. Also, I guess I'm just looking for some help deciding what to buy. I am contemplating dumping the MOTU and upgrading to the 1200f Mackie but I just need to know more about the variables and how I can best make an upgrade.

Thanks,
Ben
 
The signal chain's quality is a cumulative effect of each part of the path. If you have a great microphone, great pre-amp, great cords and a poor A/D converter, your sound will not reflect the quality components nearly as much as the poor ones. Thus, you will acheive purity of tone only when the entire route of the signal is of like quality.
It is possible to get great sound with mediocre components, but this requires great attention to detail, thorough knowledge of microphone placement and the strengths and weaknesses of a given setup, and Harvey Gerst behind the console. Your best bet failing these requirements is to build a system from the converters backwards, slowly improving each device until you reach the microphone, thereupon building up a series of these for different applications. I advise, then, to spend first on the best quality A/D converters available, until you can hear the shortcomings of your current pres, which actually aren't bad at all.
As far as choosing the converters, you will be best served by listening to many different ones, searching this site for past shootouts, and deciding what is important to you in such a device. As you clarify your desires, the choice will slowly become clearer, and no-one can replace your ears. Hope this is helpful.
 
Since your pres are integral with your converters, you can't upgrade your converters without dumping the pres. I mean it's possible to use the onboard pres and not the converters, but it would be unusual.

There aren't a lot of converter shootouts on this site, and for good reason. Most people here have trouble discerning the difference. Part of it is knowing what to listen for, and part of it is having monitors that will show the difference. It is a much smaller difference than the change between a good mic and a bad mic.

If you are interesting in an external pre, you would connect its output to the line input of the MOTU.



PS You'd much rather have Harvey positioning your mics than sitting behind the console ;)
 
Flangerhans said:
...is to build a system from the converters backwards, slowly improving each device until you reach the microphone,
Click to expand...
Great advice, all of it... if you turn it around... start at the mic and work your way back... but obviously there are different opinions on this...
Converters are important, but a clear, smearless, reproduction of a marginal signal chain isn't the best money spent starting out... and converters are the type of item that you don't realize noticable improvement until you spend some serious jing...
I'd hold onto what you've got... and suppliment with a mic/pre upgrade...
 
If it is in your budget. I would look at Presonus Firepod. Sell the Moto and go with that. Check out Youtube.com for videos about it. You might be surprised. ;)
 
so i'm still not understanding this at all. I guess I need to ask about A/D converters what is a good one?? Also, am I to understand that if I run an external pre amp into my line level imputs of my motu I will get the benefits of adding the pre ?? I'm pretty much still absolutely lost here.
 
BenWV said:
so i'm still not understanding this at all. I guess I need to ask about A/D converters what is a good one?? Also, am I to understand that if I run an external pre amp into my line level imputs of my motu I will get the benefits of adding the pre ?? I'm pretty much still absolutely lost here.
Click to expand...

As posted above I would not worry about converters unless you are willing to spend some major coin. You do need pre's. You can add them to your Moto but if you are looking at the Onyx series mixers by Mackie I would go with the Firewire option and sell the Moto. Or you can do one better and check out the FirePod from Presonus. :D
 
I had no intention of confusing the OP or pulling out an unpopular opinion here. I realize that your A/D converter is probably the last part of the signal chain that gets looked at for upgrades, but it's my opinion that you can't judge a pre until you can hear what it does clearly. Most converters are pretty fair, it's true.
If you leave your current interface at unity gain, 0 db, you are not using the pres in the unit to boost signal. You are, however, still running through the circuits, and any problems there may or may not change what you hear.
To get a pre that will perform at professional level, you can pay anywhere from 300 to 5000 dollars a channel, and thus it is important to know what you like in a pre. Listen personally to as many as you can before making a decision.
Microphone choice is a matter of subjectivity. Many different ones will end up being useful in different circumstance, and your tastes will dictate which ones are useful to you. It's good to have at least one of each major type, that is a large diaphragm condensor, a pencil condensor, a ribbon and a coil dynamic. This is why I suggest choosing microphones last, as that choice never ends.

Oh, and if I had the inestimable luck of working with Harvey, I'd be the guy moving the mic around whilst he guided and listened...and getting him coffee. I know when I'm outclassed.
 
Yo Ben! Jeez, you ask what appears to be a simple question, and you get philosophy. All of what has been said is true, but yet does not exactly address the question. As I see it, you asked 2 questions: First, how would I hook a preamp into my Motu? and secondly- What will it do for me? If I'm wrong, please correct me.

First answer- you already answered it. You take a balanced connection (if possible) from the line out on the preamp to a line in on the Motu. No problem.

Second answer- This is more difficult, because unless I've done it with the exact preamp and the exact Motu unit you are using, I can only make an educated guess. Whatever you send to the Motu will still run through the preamps of the Motu, and will be affected by the quality of the preamps in that unit. I don't know if your unit has a digital input. If it does, a preamp with a digital output would bypass the preamps (and the A-D convertor) of the Motu, and go straight to the computer. Of course, that means the signal will only be as good as the convertor on the preamp. If the signal is analog, then it will be affected by the pres in the Motu. The question is- how much?

Generally, the more you turn up a sucky preamp, the more it sucks. For instance, I have a Roland VS1824CD, and I assure you, the preamps suck. I also have an Avalon AD2022, and I assure you, it does *not* suck. If I plug the line out from that Avalon into the line in on the Roland, I get to turn the Roland's preamps way down, but they are still there. Does it sound as good as if the Avalon went through a Lucid convertor and then into the Roland, bypassing its' preamps? No. Does it sound better than using the preamps in the Roland? Hell yes. So- my best guess is that if you plug a real good preamp into your Motu and turn the gain on the Motu down, it will sound better. Will it be enough better to justify the expense? No way to answer that until you do it. But- you will own a good preamp, and sooner or later, if you keep recording, a good preamp *will* be worth the expense. From that point of view, you have nothing to lose. I have *never* regretted buying that Avalon. Hope that helps. Best of luck.-Richie
 
BenWV said:
so i'm still not understanding this at all. I guess I need to ask about A/D converters what is a good one?? Also, am I to understand that if I run an external pre amp into my line level imputs of my motu I will get the benefits of adding the pre ?? I'm pretty much still absolutely lost here.
Click to expand...

YIKES. Here is a simple answer.

When you go line out of your new preamp to the line in on your MOTU, you will be bypassing your current preamps and just using the MOTU converters (which I understand are very capable converters)

Easy. (and you already knew the answer!)

Now I will provide more long winded, semi useless drivel served up cheesehead style:

I would strongly suggest borrowing or renting a high end preamp to see what the difference is. In my personal experience I have found preamp improvements very subtle.

I used to run Aardvark Q10's with the built in preamps... I got to where you are and decided "I need better preamps" so I bought some FMR RNP's, like 3 of them over 18 months. I think they sound better. (operative word, 'think.') I use them on drums and for my bass DI. They sound good. I also insert an RNLA and do vocals with a Shure SM7. I really like that.

So I want something even better so I can really hear the difference. I bought a Great River. This one I am sure I can hear the difference. I am not 100% sure it is better, but I like it more because it has a sound that I like.

I have since changed to a FF800 interface... sounds pretty much like my Q10's. Built in preamps... pretty much like the Q10's. Needed more inputs so I grabbed an Octamic D. Sounds pretty much like the Q10's.

I have a Joe Meek VC1 (the old one) and I really love that...

You know, what I am loving about these things is that they sound different, not that they necessarily sound better.

So, as you continue down this road of upgrade addiction (which I am still on) I would suggest that you move slow and know what you are trying to improve upon. I have found that I get the BEST bang for my buck in this order:

1. Mics (SM7 and AKG414 were my biggest improvements)
2. Compressors (RNLA and the Meek built in were both really eye opening)
3. Preamps

That is just me, and what am I? I am another internet monkey, buying stuff then typing justifications for my purchases to anonymous readers when I know damn well I should be downstairs fixing that friggin bass part that has been bugging me in my project which is 12 months past my original target date.

Good luck.
 
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