Headphone Mix

[dachay2tnr]

Not sure this is the right forum for this post, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

We have a need to create a unique headphone mix for our bass player. A "more me" problem. We are currently running everything through a 16-channel Mackie mixer. The mixer has 4 Aux Sends, and I believe that I can use one of these sends to create a specific mix. We currently use two of the sends for effects (reverb for vocals and guitars, and chorus for the guitar), but we still have two others that are free.

So here are my questions:
1: The Aux Sends have 1/4" phono outlets. However, they are mono. I've tried plugging headphones directly into these outlets, and I only get a signal in one ear. I'm pretty sure I can address this via an adapter (mono (TS) to stereo (TRS). I realize that that will simply give me mono in both ears, but that is fine. We really don't pan anything on the board anyway. However, is there a better way to approach this? Should I be plugging headphones directly into an Aux Send? Seems to me that might be a stronger signal (line leve?) than a typical headphone signal. Ultimately, how do I get an Aux Send signal into a pair of headphones?

2: As mentioned above, we are using two of the other Aux Sends for FX. Will those FX be picked up in the Aux Send we use for the headphone mix? Or will that be a completely dry signal?

3: Are there other ways to get unique headphone mixes. We have headphone amps, but right now they are used to simply take the phones out connection on the mixing board and branch it to 5 pair of headphones. They work fine, but the mix is identical in all the headphones.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Just turn everything up! He'll never know the difference.

Seriously, double check to make sure that he is actually loud enough in the mix to begin with, that you or somebody isn't already doing "more me" which is overshadowing the bassist. Also, it's quite likely that he's just not getting the low end that he expects. It takes some really good headphones to produce the fundamentals of a bass guitar, and even then he won't be feeling the body buzz that he's probably used to.

I personally don't really believe in "more me" mixes because I think everybody should be listening to what they are doing to the mix at all times. Doesn't matter what your instrument sounds like on its own. But the mix has to be right for that to work. Turn his bass up a little bit in the overall mix. If you can find a way to add a tiny touch of parallel distortion it will help a whole bunch in getting it to come through in phones.

But none of that answers your specific questions.

1) Line level signals are actually usually a little bit weaker than headphone signals, or more appropriately I think they're usually higher impedance, so that they can't drive headphones properly. You'll want to put a proper headphone amp between the aux and the phones.

2) No. The signal is going out to the effects at this point, they are being returned someplace else. You'll hear the dry signal unless you can somehow route the FX returns to this headphone aux. I guess you'd probably have to return the FX to a channel or two on the mixer, but then make sure you DON'T send them back to their own aux buses or you'll get feedback.

3) What headphone amps do you have? Many of them have "aux" or "direct" or basically "more me" inputs for each channel which get mixed with the main input only for whatever pair of headphones is plugged into that channel.

 

[dachay2tnr]

Just turn everything up! He'll never know the difference.

Seriously, double check to make sure that he is actually loud enough in the mix to begin with, that you or somebody isn't already doing "more me" which is overshadowing the bassist. Also, it's quite likely that he's just not getting the low end that he expects. It takes some really good headphones to produce the fundamentals of a bass guitar, and even then he won't be feeling the body buzz that he's probably used to.

Yeah, there is no doubt he is loud enough. In fact, that is the issue. He is sooooo loud the rest of the band is complaining. My guess is that he has had some hearing loss and is having trouble hearing the bass frequencies. As a result he keeps turning himself up. When we call him on it, he claims he can't hear himself when he plays at lower volumes. We're kind of at a Mexican standoff. He's annoyed when he has to play "low" and we're annoyed when he plays loud. So I'm thinking the solution is to give him his own mix.

2) No. The signal is going out to the effects at this point, they are being returned someplace else. You'll hear the dry signal unless you can somehow route the FX returns to this headphone aux. I guess you'd probably have to return the FX to a channel or two on the mixer, but then make sure you DON'T send them back to their own aux buses or you'll get feedback.

I'm sure he is not going to want to listen to a dry mix. We have an unused channel or two on the mixer. How would I go about returning the FX to that channel. Right now they are routed via Aux Sends and Returns. It's not clear to me how I could tap that.

3) What headphone amps do you have? Many of them have "aux" or "direct" or basically "more me" inputs for each channel which get mixed with the main input only for whatever pair of headphones is plugged into that channel.

We actually have two headphone amps at present. A 4-channel Presonus, and a 5-channel Rolls. Obviously, the issue, however is that we don't want to affect the other headphones plugged into the amp. I noticed on the Rolls there is are two connections labeled Channel 1 insert and Channel 2 insert. This implies maybe those connections ONLY affect the headphones plugged into Channel 1 (or 2).

In other words, could I run a line from one of the Aux Sends on the mixing board and plug it into that connection on the Rolls and then use the Aux control knob on the bass channel to blend more bass into just ONE of the headphones?

Thanks much for your feedback. You've helped clear up a lot for me. This issue has become quite contentious with our group, and it would be really nice to resolve it.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

In other words, could I run a line from one of the Aux Sends on the mixing board and plug it into that connection on the Rolls and then use the Aux control knob on the bass channel to blend more bass into just ONE of the headphones?

Yes, but you're going from a balanced mono line output to an unbalanced stereo input so you're going to need the right adapter. Most likely you can use a standard guitar cable and a 1/4" stereo to mono adapter. Put the adapter at the headphone amp end of the cable.

If the insert replaces the normal signal then you'll need to build a complete mix for the bassist. If the insert adds to the normal signal then you can use the aux to send just bass for a "more me" setup.

 

[ashcat_lt]

I'm sure he is not going to want to listen to a dry mix. We have an unused channel or two on the mixer. How would I go about returning the FX to that channel. Right now they are routed via Aux Sends and Returns. It's not clear to me how I could tap that.

Huh huh. Tap that!

Pull the cable out of the Return jack and stick in the line input on one of your free mixer channels. Watch out for feedback.

We actually have two headphone amps at present. A 4-channel Presonus, and a 5-channel Rolls. Obviously, the issue, however is that we don't want to affect the other headphones plugged into the amp. I noticed on the Rolls there is are two connections labeled Channel 1 insert and Channel 2 insert. This implies maybe those connections ONLY affect the headphones plugged into Channel 1 (or 2).

In other words, could I run a line from one of the Aux Sends on the mixing board and plug it into that connection on the Rolls and then use the Aux control knob on the bass channel to blend more bass into just ONE of the headphones?

The only five channel headphone amp on the Rolls website has three inserts. They do, in fact each feed exactly one headphone section, and they do completely replace the main input on that channel. BSG told you what you need to do there. I find it interesting that it actually has the full schematic right in the owner's manual. Not too many folks doing that anymore.

Maybe you should get one of those ButtKicker things and just strap it to his chest? Aw well, good luck!

 

[dachay2tnr]

Yes, but you're going from a balanced mono line output to an unbalanced stereo input so you're going to need the right adapter. Most likely you can use a standard guitar cable and a 1/4" stereo to mono adapter. Put the adapter at the headphone amp end of the cable.

If the insert replaces the normal signal then you'll need to build a complete mix for the bassist. If the insert adds to the normal signal then you can use the aux to send just bass for a "more me" setup.

You guys are kicking my brain into gear. I already assumed I would need to convert the mono signal to stereo (or pseudo-stereo, since it will be mono, but in both ears).

I just tried it. I was hoping the Insert would add to the normal signal, but unfortunately it replaces it. As soon as you plug anything into the Insert, the main signal is cut out.

I can still use it to create a unique mix for the bass player, but so far it is completely dry (no effects). That might work, but ideally he would hear the same mix we hear - except with a little more bass.

Appreciate your input. It helps.

 

[dachay2tnr]

Huh huh. Tap that!

Pull the cable out of the Return jack and stick in the line input on one of your free mixer channels. Watch out for feedback.

I'll give that a shot. Will that work for both the Main Mix and the Bass-mix? Obviously we need (want?) reverb on both signals.

The only five channel headphone amp on the Rolls website has three inserts. They do, in fact each feed exactly one headphone section, and they do completely replace the main input on that channel. BSG told you what you need to do there. I find it interesting that it actually has the full schematic right in the owner's manual. Not too many folks doing that anymore.

I saw that myself when I went looking for a manual for it. Ours is a few years old. Nothing much seems to have changed, except ours only has two Channel Inserts. And I have confirmed via hands on experience that they do completely replace the main input.

However, I'm going to try what you suggested with the reverb. If that gets me reverb for both the Main Mix and the Bass Mix, I should be home. Would feedback be an issue even without any speakers? This is a studio situation and we are only monitoring on headphones.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Connect the output of your reverb to a channel or pair of channels instead of an aux input and use the aux sends to put it in the bassist's mix.

Returning reverb etc. to a channel instead of an aux return has many advantages. You have eq and routing options not usually available on an aux return. Avoid sending a reverb back to itself unless you want an interesting feedback effect. If you use an echo/delay effect you can leave it set to a single repeat and control the repeats on the board by deliberately feeding it back to itself through the aux send.

 

[dachay2tnr]

Connect the output of your reverb to a channel or pair of channels instead of an aux input and use the aux sends to put it in the bassist's mix.

Returning reverb etc. to a channel instead of an aux return has many advantages. You have eq and routing options not usually available on an aux return. Avoid sending a reverb back to itself unless you want an interesting feedback effect. If you use an echo/delay effect you can leave it set to a single repeat and control the repeats on the board by deliberately feeding it back to itself through the aux send.

I got the TS to TSR adapter (actually I got to the same place using a pair of Y cables, since Guitar Satan didn't have the adapter I needed). Anyway, it works. I am now getting a signal in both ears.

The reverb issue is next. I do have an open stereo channel on the board that I can use as a return for the FX unit. That should get us to where we need to be.

So if I understand correctly, if I, for example, use Channel 12 for the reverb return and use Aux Send 3 for the unique bass player mix, the bassist will hear the reverb as long as I adjust the Aux 3 Send knob on Channel 12. In other words, exactly like I would do for all the other instrument/vocal channels. And as long as the reverb channel is also included in the Main Mix, everyone else will hear it as well.

Makes sense. Thanks. And my ears thank you as well.

BTW, not sure what you mean about sending the reverb back to itself. Does that simply mean, in my above example, that if the reverb is on the Aux 1 Send, I should make sure the Aux 1 adjusting knob on Channel 12 (the reverb return) is set to zero. (Now that I think it through, I'm sure that's exactly what you meant. )

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I think you've got it. Let us know how it goes.

 

[dachay2tnr]

I think you've got it. Let us know how it goes.

Worked like a charm. Thanks to both of you gentlemen! I appreciate your help, and learned something in the process.

 

[rcourtney]

Not sure this is the right forum for this post, but I'll give it a shot anyway.
We have a need to create a unique headphone mix for our bass player. A "more me" problem.

Does he really need to hear more bass in his return or actually feel it?
We were surprised by an equipment integrator's solution by adding a tactile transducer in the stage under
where the bass player stands. Placebo? Maybe, but the result sounds and feels fantastic!