Confused like crazy

minds device

New member
Ok lets start with the gear

Presonus Firepod
DBX 166XL Stereo Compressor
Boss GT-3 Preamp/Effects Floor pedal
Guitar PowerAmp

I am working in my home studio for now but may need to play live in the future.

At this point this is my guitar signal chain
Guitar -> Boss GT-3 -> PowerAmp -> Cabinet -> Microphone -> PreAmp -> Interface -> DAW

In this signal chain the guitar compression and equalization is happening in the Boss GT-3. My first question is...

With the DBX 166XL compressor (mounted in my recording rack) that I typically use channel 1 for vox and bass, could I (and should I) use channel 2 to provide my guitar compression before going to the GT-3? Wont the DBX provide better compression results? I purchased this unit for vocals originally because i like whispering and yelling in single takes and this unit seems to provide better results than the software compression. (especially when monitoring) It seems to work really good on bass guitar too.

On that note I was thinking of getting a stereo (2 channel) EQ for my recording rack. Could I do the same? Use Channel 1 for recording and Channel 2 for my guitar rig? So basically I could mount my Guitar PowerAmp in my recording rack have everything going through a patchbay and use Channels 1 on EQ and COMP for recording and Channels 2 on EQ and COMP for my guitar rig and have it all mounted in the same rack. My 4x12 Cab would be in the live room and I maintain functionality of all my gear and play within the control room?

Also I will need to build a decent guitar rack controlled by midi eventually to use live. Can anyone point me to some good info on this subject? I am a 17 year guitar veteran but the whole rack thing is still new to me. I guess I could use the DBX compress and eq both channels and switch between the two? I dunno I am sooo confused. Thanks.
 
Please forgive me if this sounds glib.

Try it. If it sounds better, you have your answer. If it doesn't, don't use it. But don't rule it out. Might work for some tones and not others. The only rule is that when it ceases to be fun, you are doing it wrong.
 
In my experience a compression pedal (or a compression patch on your GT-3) behaves MUCH different than a rack compressor. Basically in a pedal chain you're going to put your compression/sustainer pedal right after the tuner and before your overdrive, reverbs, delays and other claptrap. The purpose of such a pedal is to add sustain to your guitar, not necessarily to crush an overlarge dynamic swing.

In simple terms, as a note dies out the compression pedal adjusts the volume, which will have the effect of a note that rings much longer and clearer than the body of your guitar will allow. BUT most of those who dislike using a compression/sustainer in their chain dislike it because it severely raises the noise floor of your guitar, since every little buzz and jank and otherwise inaudible little mistaken note, if you're squashing the shit out of your tone, will come off at the same level of everything else.

If you compress with your rack compressor, after your mic pre and before your desk, you're going to have *much* more control over your compressor. I haven't used a GT-3 (because I fucking HATE boss effects) but I have used a GT-6 from time to time, and I'm pretty sure you're not going to be able to adjust the attack, release, threshold, ratio, make up gain with the the same precision. Plus, you have the added bonus of being able to gate out unwanted shit coming from an imperfect home studio... cars driving by the window, your neighbor raping his daughter, etc. (the stories I could tell you). You'll also be compressing the entire guitar's sound, taming everything at once, minimizing single coil buzz between staccato guitar lines and other shit like that.

Of course, you're also getting into shaky territory with that technique. If you're putting a compressor into your chain and sending it to the desk, you don't have the ability to change it afterward. Compressing in the box allows you to really dial in and sweep knobs and listen closely to how the compressor is messing with the sound, allowing for more experimentation and greater control over your dynamic swing.

But then and there you're getting into even more dangerous territory. I've read post after post on this site that describes a guitar amp's distortion process as a severe compression/limiting. People argue one way or the other. I don't care whether it is or it isn't. When I jam an E chord the harder I jam it really only affects my preamp saturation, making it sound a bit dirtier. The 'volume' (as far as that word is even useful) is largely the same. Squashing the shit out of a shitty guitar tone to 'fix it' or 'make it sound right' is a bit like putting a band-aid on cancer.

Which begs the question, which I ask you. WHY are you compressing the guitar? Two years ago I used to squash the shit out of everything because I thought that's what I was 'supposed' to do. But, when you think about it, it's pretty fucking backwards. You play a song with quiet parts and loud parts, and you practice and practice and practice putting in minute volume swells and other expressive dynamic shit like that, and then you squash it to hell and it's all the same. Backwards.

A lot of times we use compression on vocals and bass because unless the singer has pretty perfect mic technique, the variation in the distance of their mouth from the mic creates too much dynamic swing. On a bass, you have individual string volume controls which make some louder and some softer, and in imperfect rooms certain bass frequencies blast you in the face and others are soft by comparison. Compress to fix that, if you must.

But, really, what you should do is take all your Green Day records out to the backyard and bury them. Go back and listen to some old school 60's-70's-80's stuff on vinyl and develop an ear for dynamics.

And, generally, follow this rule:

Compression=Evil.

Not to say that Evil shouldn't ever be used. But every time you go to patch in your compressor you should say: "WHY am I doing this?" And if you don't have an answer to that question, or the answer is that you're trying to 'correct' your 'sound,' turn the mics off and sit in front of your amp until you get your sound. :cool:
 
Guitars generally like meg-ohm loads. The inputs on the dbx are line level so there's a bit of miss match on impedance and level. Watch for tone change, maybe a noise level? Might be fine.
 
The compression is for a rammstein style distortion sound and it is necessary. I am not john mayer.

Rammstein? Really? Whoa. You should get that looked at.

The compression is for a rammstein-style distortion sound and it is necessary.

Why?

I got this from the great Slipperman:

"BUT... What if yer still swinging around 10-12 Db. on 'chugs'? Time to break out the compression gear kids. All there is to it. First , let's get one thing straight......ANY compressor is going to fuck with important parts of your signal. Especially pick attack and the 'life' of the guitar sound by hammering the transients from the input waveform.

Wait. Lets back up here. Try this: Take a guitar amp that has separate clean and dirty channels with gain controls that feed a master volume output knobbie. Set the 'pre' channels to about the same o'clock on both channels and crank the master volume with the dirt channel engaged. Then hit a big chord. Twist it up to 'Stage Volume'. Now, right in the middle of a riff........ SWITCH TO CLEAN. Hurts huh? FUCKING LOUD! Now switch back to the distorted channel. TINY! By comparison.

FUCKING TINY.

The pummeling impact and SHEER OPPRESSIVE VOLUME of that 'clean' sound that's ripping your face off is caused by the transients lost by the distortion process. The more distortion, the fewer transients (Not really a totally factual statement, kind of a BLANKET answer, but close enough for our purposes here). Anyways. It's amazing how many twanker bozo's can't get a grip on the concept that increases in distortion MAKE DIRTY GUITARS SOUND SMALLER, NOT BIGGER. Nu-Metal guys are gonna have trouble buying into any flavor of this concept, and we agreed we would "Work with what they gave us" Right? 'Their Sound'. In my shop...When "Your sound" is swinging 12Db common on palm mutes WE GOTTA PROBLEM. I'm going to be compressing the living shit outta your ass one way or the other.
A lot of guitar purists state... 'NEVER COMPRESS DISTORTED GUITAR' on input or mix. The wisdom is based on observations (and their logical extrapolations) of the phenomena we just got done discussing. That is... Heavily distorted guitar sounds ALREADY ARE COMPRESSED (for lack of a better term) by 'square wave rectification' of the signal in circuit that's being used to produce the 'dirty' sound in the first place. By and large, I agree. If I can get away with clever EQ rips to 'tame' a guitar 'To tape' or 'In mix' I will always do that first. However, we live in a big shitty world full of fukwit fools who will insist upon capturing OUTRAGEOUS amounts of 'Swing' from a rig.....So I say... SMASH THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. But BE CAREFUL; if you don't set up compression correctly on input, you stand to shovel yourself into a hole you will NEVER get out of for love or money. Lousy compression CANNOT be undone after the fact. Period."
 
A compressor floor pedal is designed to replicate an overdriven amplifier stage...

A compressor is designed to control dynamics...

Two different beasts... though not altogether totally...
 
After drinking my third cup of coffee I realized that I had more to say about the Slipperman excerpt.

When I asked the OP (after poking fun at Rammstein) the question "Why?" when he wrote that the compression "is necessary" I meant to glean out some comment about what was the use of the compression in this particular case. Basically, when I started researching and getting mad-scientist with recording distorted guitars I read his guitar bible through completely a few times, and then printed the thing out, punched some holes, put it in a binder, and permanently enshrined it on my desk.

IMHO a compressor (as opposed to a stomp-box compressor/SUSTAINER) has one use and one use only when recording distorted guitars, and that use is to tame the dynamic 'swing' that Slipperman is talking about. Notably, for the nu-metal guys, that 'swing' between palm-muted riffs and open, full-blasted power chords. In this particular case he is talking about a 12dB swing between the palm-muted riffs and the open riffs. Compressing can tame that shit a bit, but it IS GOING TO ALTER THE GUITAR's SOUND, affecting transients and harmonics and all those other wonderful intricacies and anomalies that make a guitar tone a guitar tone.

My first post was an attempt to glean out an answer... basically give me some reason why a compressor is in the chain in the first place, then let's debate the pros and cons of the effect and it's placement in the signal. Time and time again I spend time backstage at a show yammering with a fellow guitarist over a pedalboard and the position and function of every single pedal in it. Often we do things (this is how I learned) by getting some general idea of how it 'should' be done. You do that without thinking, and learn slowly by experiment.

Which is wonderful. Rock and roll is, at base level, a gesture of freedom. No rules should be so cut-and-dry that they can't be bent, or bucked entirely. Put your Big Muff Russian in the FX loop. Tune every sting to D. Rock. Play your guitar with only two fingers. Whatever puts the goosebumps on yer butt, man.

But with each and every application of an effect or gear, we should be asking ourselves: "What is it that this particular piece is doing? How is it changing the sound?" If the answer to either of those questions is "I dunno," more experimentation and reading and experimentation again is necessary.

By way of example: that nu-metal sound you so love and covet isn't solely a product of turning gain to 10 and squashing the shit out of it (yeah, I talk shit about rammstein, but I like metal and in-your-face, aggressive guitars. A friend of mine says that all the indie-rock guitar players all started as metal kids before deciding they didn't want to ruin their lives and play shows at steel-mill bars for long-hair, beertitted groupies with names like "Slim" and "Wreck" and "Bob"). There are other equally effective if not more effective ways to approach the same problem.

System of a Down, for example, when laying down the Toxicity album, did something like 50 takes of guitar for each song, with no effects in the chain at all before the amp. Each take had slightly different settings on the amp ranging from clean to down-and-dirty. When you're talking nu0metal tone, I think the buck starts there. The guitars on that album sound FUCKING NASTY, and they're made up of guitars layered and layered and panned all over the place, often with WAY LESS GAIN than you'd expect.

So, before you go the easy way and try to tame a 12dB swing like the Holy Slipperman suggests, you might try doubling, tripling, quadrupling parts and automating level changes in the DAW before you throw on the compression band-aid and call it a day.

All that said, do what you want.
 
Ok lets start with the gear

Presonus Firepod
DBX 166XL Stereo Compressor
Boss GT-3 Preamp/Effects Floor pedal
Guitar PowerAmp

I am working in my home studio for now but may need to play live in the future.

At this point this is my guitar signal chain
Guitar -> Boss GT-3 -> PowerAmp -> Cabinet -> Microphone -> PreAmp -> Interface -> DAW

In this signal chain the guitar compression and equalization is happening in the Boss GT-3. My first question is...

With the DBX 166XL compressor (mounted in my recording rack) that I typically use channel 1 for vox and bass, could I (and should I) use channel 2 to provide my guitar compression before going to the GT-3? Wont the DBX provide better compression results? I purchased this unit for vocals originally because i like whispering and yelling in single takes and this unit seems to provide better results than the software compression. (especially when monitoring) It seems to work really good on bass guitar too.

On that note I was thinking of getting a stereo (2 channel) EQ for my recording rack. Could I do the same? Use Channel 1 for recording and Channel 2 for my guitar rig? So basically I could mount my Guitar PowerAmp in my recording rack have everything going through a patchbay and use Channels 1 on EQ and COMP for recording and Channels 2 on EQ and COMP for my guitar rig and have it all mounted in the same rack. My 4x12 Cab would be in the live room and I maintain functionality of all my gear and play within the control room?

Also I will need to build a decent guitar rack controlled by midi eventually to use live. Can anyone point me to some good info on this subject? I am a 17 year guitar veteran but the whole rack thing is still new to me. I guess I could use the DBX compress and eq both channels and switch between the two? I dunno I am sooo confused. Thanks.



The easiest answer to this is add a simple 1/4 inch patchbay in the rack and wire it to the compressor, eq and amp etc and you can change it at anytime your routing.. voila.

I wouldn't use the same path for bass and vocals unless they are never playing together if I understand you. The first thing though in a studio or multi setup is to have all the ins and outs available to you in my opinion.
Then you are flexible and you don't have to be climbing or reaching around things all the time which stifles creativity.
That way if you want to run two mics off an amp or acoustic guitar in stereo lets say, you can use both sides of the signal chain from your board.
 
Wow

Starbucks, I know I'm about 9 years late on this, and you may not even be here anymore, but your responses on this topic are GOLDEN. Very knowledgable and cleared up a few concepts for me as well. Also, I had to laugh out loud quite a few times, which probably pissed off my neighbors.





After drinking my third cup of coffee I realized that I had more to say about the Slipperman excerpt.

When I asked the OP (after poking fun at Rammstein) the question
All that said, do what you want.
 
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