Compact solution for multiple inputs to single effects chain

canakas

New member
Dear all,

I have a single effects chain and I want to route my microphone(s) and my guitar(s) through this chain.

"Easy!," you say. "Get a mixer!"

I say: "Yes, a mixer is certainly the way to go, but I need it to be compact, since I will be on stage working with this gear and be on the road a lot (by bike mostly!)"

So a mixer the size of Mackies 402 VLZ4 or any of the other budget equivalents, would be perfect, but although adding INSERTs to the 402 seems feasible, it doesn't solve my multiple input problem. For that I would need AUX SENDs, but adding AUX SENDs would be much more complicated and would need a summing amp etc. A bump up, again with a Mackie as example, the 802 VLZ4 has AUX SENDs and its footprint is about the size of a sheet of paper, which is the absolute maximum size I would consider practical for on-stage operation.

I have seen people talking about line mixers of brands such as Rolls and ART, but I cannot seem to find anything in their lineups that fits my bill.

Please post your suggestions and/or experiences! Am I overlooking some other solution here?

Please bear in mind that I would like to be able to deliver a "recording quality" signal from my setup (low noise floor), but that it won't take much to improve on my current solution which involves running a Boss LS-2 in reverse (as a 2ch mixer = high noise floor, ask me how I do it, if you're interested)

Also, if its the only solution to get a sligthly larger mixer, please raise the flag if getting this 802 VLZ4 mixer would be buying the cat in the bag, in terms of sound quality (have a look at the rest of my gear if you want to know my gear context). Is there a big difference in noise to Soundcraft or Allen&Heath?

Thanks a lot and have a nice weekend!
cancancancancan

My setup:
Mics: Microtech Gefell, P48 Refurbed MV691 with M70 cap + a couple of Tandberg TM6
Preamp: M-Audio DMP3
Pedals: EHX Freeze and SMMH (+ the Boss LS-2, which I want to loose)
Amp: AER Compact 60-2
Recording: Tascam 246 (oh baby!) + digital
 
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Bump. Noone uses multiple inputs to their effects loops? ..
Its a normal way to do it. But lets back up. So do you intend to pre mix your mic(s? how many..?) and instrument inputs(s? again..) into this acoustic amp?
That sort of just steers to any decent mixer with the minimum footprint with however inputs you need.
(I take it the AC amp doesn't have an FX loop..?
 
Hello mixsit,

Thanks for the reply!

Well yes, I want to mix microphones and instruments and pour them simultaneously through my effects loop... So yes a mixer of some kind is the answer - the question as you point out, is the footprint of the mixer - I am looking for the most compact solution with which I can do this...

Could you or anyone suggest a line mixer or small mixer that could manage this and detail how you would connect the different boxes?

I mean, I could wing it with a small mixer like the mackie 402 by panning everything to the left and then connecting the mixers left main out to my effects loop, but I am worried this will cause impedance problems, ie the signal coming from the mixer would be too hot for the pedals... or am I mistaken?

best regards
can
 
Peavey PV14 (12 lbs) might offer a solution via inserts. If you run effects loops in channels you're not using for instruments/mikes and then feed your outputs back into those channels via Y adapters and mix them to the aux send(s) (leave the faders OFF on effects loop channels). You'll be able to get the mix you want by using the aux sends (monitor and/or effects) sent to the amplifier. Those insert channels are designed for effects loop, so should not be a problem.
 
By bike, do you mean pedals or motor? Not sure how you'd do what you want with the 802 (one bus, no inserts).
 
Hi people,

Great answers! :thumbs up:

By bike, I mean pedals, so the 12 lb PV14 is a bit heavy, but the PV6 has aux sends, so the PV14's little brother would work - any experience with the Peavey mixers in terms of sound quality (and preamp quality)?

I realize many people don't care much for Mackie, so I'm guessing there is a reason for that... maybe I should stop thinking about the 802-VLZ4 then... but @BroKen_H the 802 has INS on Ch1+2 and more importantly Aux Sends on each channel...

Now, remember that I am trying to run several sources - into one and the same effects loop!

So, @mixsit, I am currently using 1 guitar and 1 - 2 microphones, but expansion for 1 more guitar would be good - so let's say I am looking for minimum 3 - 4 inputs.

Seen any -tiny- mixers with Aux Sends/Effects send out there?
 
okay, my confuse. I was assuming you needed multiple effects loops applied to a set mix. Single aux will handle that easily.
 
Without googling, I would have not idea. Put some time into "small footprint mixer" or "single aux compact mixer" or similar and find specs. :D
If you're on a bike, perhaps weight is more important than size. Bigger, but weighs less might suit you better than the smallest possible size, but weighs 10lb.
 
Quick search:
Yamaha MG82CX or MW10 @ 3.5 lbs
Peavey PV6 @ 3.9 lbs
Mackie 802 @ 5.5 lbs
If weight is the issue, I'd run with Yamaha.
 
I mean, I could wing it with a small mixer like the mackie 402 by panning everything to the left and then connecting the mixers left main out to my effects loop, but I am worried this will cause impedance problems, ie the signal coming from the mixer would be too hot for the pedals... or am I mistaken?
Well, you're mistaken in that there isn't an impedance problem. You're also mistaken in thinking that an aux send would work any better. But you are correct that the biggest issue will probably be the levels. Most mixers will be capable of passing quite a bit more voltage than any pedal can take without distorting. The aux sends will do it too, though. Luckily, most of them come with convenient knobs or faders which can be used to regulate the levels that you are sending out. ;)

When I say that it's not an impedance problem I mean between the mixer and the pedals. Impedance and output level are not the same thing! There might be an impedance problem at the other side of the mixer, though. I'm sorry, I didn't catch what type of guitar you're using for this. An acoustic with on-board preamp (most acoustic-electrics) or an active electric will be fine plugging straight into a line input on a mixer. A passive electric or an acoustic with one of those removable soundhole pickups will probably lose a whole lot of treble unless its buffered first.

I also didn't see what mic you're using (maybe I should have read...) but it might want a little bit of gain from a preamp to play nice with the guitar, so I can't really recommend a simple resistor network, passive mixer (DOD used to make a 4 channel pedal-sized one) or a line mixer.
 
Hello,

@BroKen_H
Thank you for your suggestions about the weight and as far as mixers from google go - the ones you mention are indeed on my list in addition to the A&H 10-FX. As always, I have done much googling, but I am of the type who doesn't believe much in reviews I haven't asked for (such as those found on amazon, musiciansfriend, zsound, thomann, etc) - thus my post here on the forum. This, however, does not mean I haven't read them. So here I am - looking to hear about peoples personal experiences. And their solutions to situations they encounter as musicians, that may be relevant for how I meet my particular challenges.

@ashcat_lt

Thank you for a didactic post! :thumbs up: Lets take it slow, so that I understand yeah?

Well, you're mistaken in that there isn't an impedance problem. You're also mistaken in thinking that an aux send would work any better. But you are correct that the biggest issue will probably be the levels.
...
When I say that it's not an impedance problem I mean between the mixer and the pedals. Impedance and output level are not the same thing!

I think we agree that there is an impedance problem and a level problem(the most serious perhaps) and that impedance and output level are not the same thing. But do impedance mismatches cause levels mismatches (that may introduce noise)?
(we can stick to our example of connecting the Main Out to a pedal chain for now, if you wish to answer in a specific context)

To rephrase the question: Maybe there is sth I don't understand about impedance matching in audio circuitry...How would you proceed to connect a e.g. a Main Out (L, mono) to a pedal chain, very low output volume? I mean, how would you describe the problems associated with this?

There might be an impedance problem at the other side of the mixer, though.
Maybe. At least there were with the LS-2 hacked (see earlier posts). Now let me spring off this comment with a question; If in the following, sound moves from left to right, does a mismatch only introduce noise when going from Imp1 to imp2 and not from Imp2 to Imp1? (I ask this due to the existence of single hole high-Z AND line level-capable inputs on mixers)

Most mixers will be capable of passing quite a bit more voltage than any pedal can take without distorting. The aux sends will do it too, though. Luckily, most of them come with convenient knobs or faders which can be used to regulate the levels that you are sending out. ;)

So does this mean, that the AUX sends are not meant to be used with pedals and such? But that they will do fine at low volumes?

what type of guitar
...
what mic
...
from a preamp

Guitar is a Washburn HB35 (w/ humbuckers) or one of two acoustics with saddle piezo pickups coupled to either a EQ-7545R or a Schertler Bluestick.

Mics: Microtech Gefell, P48 Refurbed MV691 with M70 cap + a couple of Tandberg TM6
Preamp: M-Audio DMP3

Thank you kindly for your time and shared experiences!
 
I might go back through your post in a bit, but for now...

For best voltage transfer (what we want, signal level = voltage) you want a small out-Z connected to a big in-Z. Ideal would be a 0R output into an infinite input impedance. We usually should for no worse than 1:10 ratio. Better is better for both "maintaining level" and for noise purposes.

Now consider that any "output" hole on an active mixer looks almost exactly like the output of any of your pedals. Do you ever worry about impedance mismatch when you're plugging one pedal into another? So...???

The only question on that end is one of total voltage throughput. Your mixer will be able to put out 20 or more volts P2P when all the red lights are lit. A 9V pedal will maybe pass 7V before it starts to distort (unless it's meant to distort...), but that's still a bit above 0dbVU on most mixers. Honestly if you run everything(!!!) at unity you should be fine.

The passive HB guitar is a special cases. It has a very large, very inductive impedance. That is, it starts out big at low frequencies and gets fucking huge at high frequencies. In order to get as much high frequency information out of that as possible, we need it connected to a fucking huge input impedance. Unless the mixer has a hole marked for an instrument, none of its holes will have a big enough in-Z to get much more than a warm far out. If it has a hole marked for an instrument, then that one is high enough, but be aware that it also probably adds gain. Any buffered pedal (Boss, Digitech, anything non-true bypass) before any input hole on the mixer aleviates the problem.
 
@ashcat_lt

Another very informative post! Thank you for sharing and teaching! +rep!

You cleared up most of my questions and taught me several new aspects of my equipment - now I just need to find a mixer =)
Dare I ask your opinion on the Mackie 802-VLZ4 vs the Allen&Heath ZED 10 vs Yamaha MW10? Any experience with any of these?

Also, yet another question from my thought-train - if I want to be very cheap; Do you think it would be problematic to use a tiny mixer like the Mackie 402 or similar and to route the signal as follows: guitar to input 1 (highZ-input or through a DI), mic to input 2, both panned hard left - then main out L to effects chain - back into input 3 panned hard right - then out through main out R?

I realize this would set the volume of the effects loop in and out at the same time, and would leave me without a dry signal (if not panned in towards right) - but would it create a feedback loop? Is this simply a "bad" idea compared to using an AUX send at the right gain (perhaps unity as you say)?

best regards
canakas
 
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