Can you daisy-chain preamps?
- Thread starter notCardio
- Start date
Is there
a general rule of thumb for gain setting, like do you want most of the gain to come from the second stage, or the first, or you try to split it between the two?
And what if you wanted to use a particular pre because of it's color, but it doesn't have enough gain, so you're going to pair it with a really clean pre just for the gain?
Do you put the colored pre in the front of the chain, followed by the clean, or vice-versa?
Thanks. This is really helpful.
a general rule of thumb for gain setting, like do you want most of the gain to come from the second stage, or the first, or you try to split it between the two?
And what if you wanted to use a particular pre because of it's color, but it doesn't have enough gain, so you're going to pair it with a really clean pre just for the gain?
Do you put the colored pre in the front of the chain, followed by the clean, or vice-versa?
Thanks. This is really helpful.
As a general rule of gain staging, it's best to keep all stages as mid-level as possible. So if you have two pre's. It's better to keep them both at 5 say, rather than one at 9 and the other at 1. That way you have equal amounts of room in either direction on both.
As for which should come first, I'm not sure it really matters, and it may just need some experimenting from you in both positions. Inherently, it seems like the one you're using for the sound should come first, and the one used only for volume should be second.
Now, if overgaining the first pre achieves the sound you want, and it's first in the chain, you can leave that hot, but still "limit" the overall volume with the second pre.
Basically it seems like you have some good stuff to experiment with. Just play around till you get what you want. You may not even know what you want until you discover it. That's what makes this fun.
As for which should come first, I'm not sure it really matters, and it may just need some experimenting from you in both positions. Inherently, it seems like the one you're using for the sound should come first, and the one used only for volume should be second.
Now, if overgaining the first pre achieves the sound you want, and it's first in the chain, you can leave that hot, but still "limit" the overall volume with the second pre.
Basically it seems like you have some good stuff to experiment with. Just play around till you get what you want. You may not even know what you want until you discover it. That's what makes this fun.
That sounds about the way I thought it would work, but I didn't know for sure.
I think what I want to do is get a Brick, but it looks like it doesn't have enough gain for dynamic mics like an sm-7. But if I could take the output of the Brick and run it into my DMP-3 to make up some gain, then that would be extremely cool, and I could justify spending the $ on a Brick, that I want as a bass DI anyway.
Any flaws in that logic anyone?
I think what I want to do is get a Brick, but it looks like it doesn't have enough gain for dynamic mics like an sm-7. But if I could take the output of the Brick and run it into my DMP-3 to make up some gain, then that would be extremely cool, and I could justify spending the $ on a Brick, that I want as a bass DI anyway.
Any flaws in that logic anyone?
Ford Van
Banned
RAK said:
Sorry, but this is very poor advice!
When you are talking preamplifiers, the idea is for the preamp to raise the level of a VERY WEAK signal up to line level as quietly as possible. Most do this quite well. But, the preamp itself generates some noise.
So, it makes no sense to amplify NOISE at the second stage. It makes more sense to achieve most of your gain from mic to line level as early as possible in the signal chain.
dr.colossus
New member
I think another point to remember is that the whole thing is only going to sound as good as the weakest link in the chain.
I think if your having a minor gain issue a more effective solution may be to bring the volume up in the mixing stage, in the digital domain this is a pretty safe approach and will let you avoid adding a lot more noise when you increase the volume.
But I'm no expert here, my problem is usually too much signal
I think if your having a minor gain issue a more effective solution may be to bring the volume up in the mixing stage, in the digital domain this is a pretty safe approach and will let you avoid adding a lot more noise when you increase the volume.
But I'm no expert here, my problem is usually too much signal
Reggie
PutsTheLotionOnItsSkin
I think I would get the brick first, and then worry about it. Most likely, you won't need to stage 2 preamps together. Whoever put out that myth that an SM7 needs 60db of gain did all the noobs a disservice. Besides, is 55db really that much less? {Answer: no.}
On the other hand, the Brick could benefit from having a pad on it somewheres...SM57 on snare usually results in digital overs without an in-line pad.
On the other hand, the Brick could benefit from having a pad on it somewheres...SM57 on snare usually results in digital overs without an in-line pad.
Ford Van said:
His original idea was to use 1 mic pre because he liked the sound, but it didn't give enough gain, so we wanted to go Line Level out of the 1st pre into Line Level In into the second to boost the volume. So there's still only 1 Mic to Line "conversion"
My advice was on general gain staging theory, and I was assuming you have half-way decent pre's with good S/N ratio. Of course it makes no sense to amplify noise.
notCardio said:
You're correct. This is what you said in your first post actually, so you were right on there. The Mic Pre outputs a Line Level Signal, and while you can run that into a mic input, you may be way over gaining the signal, and could actually damage the second mic pre. It's not usually recommended. Now if you have a Pad on the 2nd mic pre, then that could work. But it's not just level that's the issue here, also impedance.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Except that he doesn't own the preamp yet, and he's only guessing that it won't have enough gain. It very well might have enough gain. He is assuming he will have a problem he doesn't even have yet.
If the Brick doesn't have enough gain, the way I would do it is get as much gain out the Brick as possible and then tweak it up a little after the Brick if necessary.
There would not need to be a line level input on the preamp. And if there were, you would *not* use it. The reason being that a line level input on a preamp would probably be a DI input, which would just knock the signal back down to mic level. The opposite of what you need to do if you are amplifying the signal further.
All you'll need from that second preamp is a very little more gain. Not much at all, if at all. Get the Brick first and see if it does it for you, then look into a second preamp only if it becomes necessary at that point.
If the Brick doesn't have enough gain, the way I would do it is get as much gain out the Brick as possible and then tweak it up a little after the Brick if necessary.
There would not need to be a line level input on the preamp. And if there were, you would *not* use it. The reason being that a line level input on a preamp would probably be a DI input, which would just knock the signal back down to mic level. The opposite of what you need to do if you are amplifying the signal further.
All you'll need from that second preamp is a very little more gain. Not much at all, if at all. Get the Brick first and see if it does it for you, then look into a second preamp only if it becomes necessary at that point.
SonicAlbert said:
OK, I already have the second pre (DMP-3), which should have enough gain for an SM7. I wanted the Brick as a flavor for the SM7 (and as a bass DI), but I've been told that it wouldn't have enough gain for that mic. So I was hoping that since I already had the DMP3, I could use it to make up for the gain lacking in the Brick, just a little extra boost. But wouldn't putting a line level out into an instrument level in give you a pretty distorted sound? Would I need to buy a line level preamp?
SonicAlbert said:
Line Level and Instrument level are not the same thing, it's not like a DI.
If he wants to go Microphone -> Mic Pre In (gain stage 1)-> Line Level Out -> Line Level In (gain stage 2), there's nothing wrong with that.
Just pulling an example out of my head, something like the Behringer ADA8000 has Mic and Line Inputs, not instrument inputs. If you wanted to run a previous line level signal (say from another mic pre) into that Line Input, then you have a second gain stage.
notCardio said:
It definetly could, which is what I was getting at earlier. You just want a second line level mixer, to be able to add more gain. I've used wireless mic recievers outputting a line level signal (switch to Line) plugged directly into a mic input (A&H GL3800 series) and didn't have any problems, You just need to watch your levels, and if you have a Pad, you should probably use it. But again, I'm not saying this is the best option, running a line level signal into a mic level input.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
The Brick gives you 55 dB of gain, which in most situations should be enough. I think only the quietest sources might need additional amping.
But if it does, then running line level out of the Brick into your other preamp should do the trick. I wasn't aware that the DMP3 had line level inputs. You're just adding another gain stage, and probably using little of it since the Brick will be handling most of the gain.
I personally would try to avoid that because I like to keep signal paths to a minimum, especially when recording. You'd just have to experiment with it.
But if it does, then running line level out of the Brick into your other preamp should do the trick. I wasn't aware that the DMP3 had line level inputs. You're just adding another gain stage, and probably using little of it since the Brick will be handling most of the gain.
I personally would try to avoid that because I like to keep signal paths to a minimum, especially when recording. You'd just have to experiment with it.