Behringer and patents/lawsuits/etc.

famous beagle

Well-known member
So everyone's heard about the lawsuits Behringer faced from Mackie and all. From my understanding, the court dismissed the charges, stating that circuit schematics are not protected by copyright laws. And I guess they rejected the "Trade Dress" claims as well.

At any rate, what I'm wondering is this:

Why was Behringer called out for this type of thing and yet all these other companies, such as Warm Audio, making clones of famous compressors/etc. are not being called out and/or sued? Here are some prime examples of what I'm talking about:

Warm Audio WA76: 1176 clone
Warm Audio WA76 Limiting Amplifier | Sweetwater.com

Warm Audio WA-2A: LA-2A clone
Warm Audio WA-2A | Sweetwater.com

Warm Audio EQP-WA: Pultec EQP-1A clone
Warm Audio EQP-WA | Sweetwater.com

I mean ... they're not even trying to disguise it at all. They even mention in the sales pitch that it's "'2A-style" or "Pultec-style," etc. The WA76 even says it's "a modern reproduction of the Classic '76 Revision D."

So ... what gives?

I'm not trying to gain sympathy for Behringer or anything, but I just don't understand why what they did was seen as trademark/copyright infringement and what Warm Audio or Maxon (in the guitar pedal department) are doing is seemingly acceptable. (I'm not aware of any lawsuits against these companies, but maybe there are some I don't know about?)
 
I think berhinger suffered the same fate as the Japanese gibson copies of the 70s did.

An inferior cheap knockoff of a quality product gets attacked more so than a quality 'clone'.

Don't know the legalities but that's what I've observed.
 
These "reboots" are clones of things that aren't made anymore. The B-word was cloning very popular stuff that was on the market at the time.
 
These "reboots" are clones of things that aren't made anymore. The B-word was cloning very popular stuff that was on the market at the time.

Is that the difference then?

But, to that note, I thought that UA still basically owned the rights to the 1176 and LA-2A models? UA became UREI in 1957 (and included Teletronix), which Putnam sold in 85 or so. Then his sons rebooted the company (again names UA) in 1999 and started production on the 1176 and LA-2A again. Wouldn't they still own the trademark and copyright?
 
Haven't dug in enough to know if they let them expire or not. I know some companies' clones are "approved" at least. But that Mackie/Behringer situation was ugly for awhile back when... Different type of situation.
 
Don't know the particulars of the case, proper, but i do know some legalities. All rumors aside, there are a few realities in any such case that might shed a bit of light on your questions.

1. Copyright and Patent are not really "protection". They are very little more or less than "permission to sue". As I'm sure you've seen, there's no guarantee you'll win, just a fair certainty you'll be heard at trial.

2. Patent infringement is against the claims of the patent. So that means when you see a patent number on something, it's not for "this thing", it's for some "version of the art" that exists in or around that thing. A compressor might carry a patent number, but it's not for THAT compressor and it doesn't uniquely identify that compressor like a UBC number, it simply says something about that compressor is protected by a patent. It could be the circuitry; it could be the power supply; it could be the casing. So in order to infringe upon a product's patent, you can make a knockoff just as long as you don't violate the claims of the patent granted by the Patent and Trademark Office.

3. Because these are court cases, somebody has to pay for that. Ralph and Charlie's Compressors might be in blatant violation of a patent, but until they sell a few, it's hardly worth even a Cease and Desist letter, let alone a court case. This is why Big Names are involved in suits -- they have the money to win and lose. For the same reason you're not looking for a fry-sacking job, many suits don't get filed when one might think they should: ain't no money in it.

4. Damages have to be shown. Abandoned products from defunct companies are often violated with little recourse. It's been decided long ago that patents are for market protection not for market exclusion, so while the letter of the law protects against all encroachments, the precedents seem to point toward protecting good ideas that are out there and not shelved. Leastwise, the awards take that into consideration. So if you invent The Best Compressor Ever and then decide humanity isn't ready for it, you can do that. But if someone else decides to build it, the courts won't shut them down just because you say so, but they will make sure you get a piece of the action. One of a great many subtleties in patent/copyright law.

5. These fights at a corporate level are seldom principled. These are never about anything so noble as 'protection'. These are invariably middle-managers with spreadsheets looking for a lump of revenue to take credit for. So they find a likely competitor and do some back room research. They take it to legal and see if they have a case which, if they find the right guy over in legal also trying to make a name, they have a case. Unless or until you read the court journals, there's no telling what it's all *actually* about. Corporate PR will never give the full or complete story. Best of all, everyone involved gets free publicity. No such thing as bad publicity.

There's a full bunch of posts that could be written on patent/copyright caselaw. Rumors abound all over and that's fine, but it's rare that the story is ever told straight, even by the litigants, and almost never by any observer - including the trade mags.

Behringer has a good legal team. They know what the "10% difference" looks like. Not everyone agrees. They *could* be sued much more than they are, but they're also known for not backing down from a fight, that they very often win. So if you take them on, the bluff of Cease and Desist or even pre-trial negotiations will never fly (they usually don't, anyway), you'll be going to court and that's gonna be expensive, especially with international issues. So sure you might win, but you also might get tore up pretty badly in the process. That's the way it is. No one wins (or loses) them all.


Ponder5
 
No one wins (or loses) them all.
Pretty accurate except that last sentence..the damn lawyers always win...:mad:

I just recently participated as an expert witness in a patent infringement litigation and oddly enough it was not a law suit in the traditional sense but more an investigation by the International Trade Commission. It was treated as a law suit and was seriously serious shit. Had it gone the whole way through and the ITC had determined the patent was valid and there was infringement, all containers of the product coming into the states would have been disallowed and either confiscated at the port and destroyed or refused entry and sent back...Yikes. In our case the company claiming infringement after spending millions of dollars (seriously dumb asses) in legal fees dropped the case with the ITC. An interesting side note that I did not know previously was that the ITC has a LOT of power and had they concluded that the patent was invalid ( which they would have) the patent would automatically been invalidated by the the Patent office..This is why the company dropped the charges. When they realized we were going to fight the fight to the end and the end would have been a lose lose for them. They would not have stopped us and lost their their stupid unprotectable patents in the process. So suddenly after a year of drama, sweat and legal fees ( that are unrecoverable) the walk away from the fight.

Another key thing on utility patents is that unlike copyright and trademark ...they only have a short 20 year life (it used to be 17)...15 years for design patents ...that's it, no protection, anyone can copy anything after the patent expires. Anything vintage from a design perspective in unprotectable...now the name as a copyright or trademak as long as it is being used is protected 100%.
 
Another key thing on utility patents is that unlike copyright and trademark ...they only have a short 20 year life (it used to be 17)...15 years for design patents ...that's it, no protection, anyone can copy anything after the patent expires. Anything vintage from a design perspective in unprotectable...now the name as a copyright or trademak as long as it is being used is protected 100%.
Thats interesting, such a short time for someones labor and sweat and "invention".
Really BS imo. There should be a lifetime to the original inventor why should it become public domain at all? I call BS. lol

the 1176 thing especially hot right now. and abusing the Neve name slapped on about every preamp made, and the Neumann U87 etc.

When I was at INTEL the AMD lawsuits were going on and so the numbers were not copyright-able? and so INTEL had a name contest and came up with PENTIUM. I had entered SQUANTCHCLOTPOOP but it didnt win. PENTIUM won, it was the 586.
So to protect the name it was er...names from then on. Pentium, Celeron, blahblah...
 

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Thats interesting, such a short time for someones labor and sweat and "invention".
Really BS imo. There should be a lifetime to the original inventor why should it become public domain at all? I call BS. lol

You're probably calling BS because you're a nice guy with good intentions. But not everyone is. So they had to come up with a standard that everyone could live with.

First off -- who is this "original inventor" guy? Most products are made by a team of engineers, sitting at desks and cubicles they didn't buy, under lights they don't pay for. They were hired for their creative ability and when they deliver, that's their job. Now who is this "original inventor"? The huge corporation that pays their wages? Usually. See how many thousands of patents are in the names of IBM, GE, Boeing, AT&T, and other blue-chips. What's the 'lifetime' on that? Why should those shareholders, that did ZERO, realize great gains forever?

Secondly -- What about the inventor's health? He migtha come up with this 2 months before a massive stroke. Now what? Is his widow just thrown to the curb? Is it now just public domain?

Third -- a surprisingly significant number of patents are filed by someone that had nothing to do with the invention. This creates a bit of a quagmire, also.

But mostly, the whole bit about patent is not about exclusivity and legacy, it's about protection. As no man is an island, no man can claim complete and total credit for anything he does, but as most inventors will tell you, he stands on the shoulders of those gone before. To prevent two ugly mindsets, the laws impose limitations.

1) "It's MINE! MineMineMineMineMineMineMine! I am the greatest! It's all mine! Only I know the forbidden secrets of my great and powerful discovery!" Okay, sure, it's yours. Got it. But keep it to yourself. Keep your trap shut if you want it to stay that way. If you're so cool and advanced, then you don't need public protection. If you want public protection, with the full force of courts and such, then you get 2 decades. That's the deal.

2) "It's MINE! I shall rule the world with my greatness and achievements! None shall challenge me for only I can do it!" Okay, sure, you're great. Your achievement is great. But when the wheel was introduced, it was pretty great. So was the light bulb. So was the internal combustion engine. So no matter how great you think you are, sooner or later, if we intend to ever make any progress, your greatest-invention-ever will soon be as ubiquitous as the wheel. We'll give you these years to make all the money you think you wanna make and THEN, if someone else takes a notion, they can make it, too.

These limitations are genuinely what has made progress a reality. Think back to the Guild systems of Renaissance Europe. It was stifling and oppressive to invention and development because not only the knowledge, but the *permission* was all locked up. Same with the heavily Unionized or even Socialized climates of certain places, today. Locking it all down is always an ugly thing.

So we give a few years to someone and allow them to make a go of it. If so, great. If not, fine. But sooner or later, they take the risk of having themselves shoved aside for someone else of more talent.

Huh... we musicians see this all the time. Nothing new, here.


Ponder5
 
If you want public protection, with the full force of courts and such, then you get 2 decades. That's the deal.

So 20yrs is it. I didnt know that. 20yrs seems such a small amount of time.
So Massive was right about the Behringer issue and they were being too soon to copy others work and got called on it.
Interesting though I had been wondering the same thing about the blatant copys. I had heard guitars the headstock cant be copied, but on rack gear it seems exact layouts are ok.(short of the brand name and logo?)
 
So 20yrs is it. I didnt know that. 20yrs seems such a small amount of time.
So Massive was right about the Behringer issue and they were being too soon to copy others work and got called on it.
Interesting though I had been wondering the same thing about the blatant copys. I had heard guitars the headstock cant be copied, but on rack gear it seems exact layouts are ok.(short of the brand name and logo?)

There's an old saying: Whenever you get 4 lawyers together, you'll get 5 opinions.

There's nothing cut and dried about any of this. With this many lawyers involved, nothing is straightforward or, sadly, honest. So whether or not anyone was "right" is a maybe. Whether you can copy this or that is a maybe.

And remember, again, Patent (and Copyright) is not like a speed limit or building code. It's not enforcement, it's simply permission to sue. The alleged infringement is grounds for legal action. That's all you get. If you identify the encroachment, make your case, and win, then the government might step in (via court order) and you might realize compensation.

The government won't set out speed traps or deploy inspectors to see if something is going wrong. It's up to you (and more accurately, your lawyer) to chase this stuff down and bring complaint against the offending party. This is, again, why some stuff "gets away with it" if there's not enough money involved. It's always about the money, and guess who gets that?

Just like TAE said:
..the damn lawyers always win...:mad:


Ponder5
 
So then even if you sue it might be an international campaign where some countrys have different rules and laws. This could get crazy. Like CHina for example maybe they dont care what our Trade and Patent laws mean in the US or UK or Russia...and dont care about copyright legal threats from lawyers, where as Canada might hear the case.

....but imagine having to spend money to file suits in several countries? and as you mention "might" get some compensation.


I see the WA2A won TEC AWARD at NAMM 2017...based on a LA2A schematic? lol its nuts....it might be legal, but its still nuts.
 
While I certainly appreciate the endorsement, let's just remember that this doesn't constitute legal advice.

Yes, there are different laws among different countries. The chief difference is our rather unique (and wonderful) trial by jury concept. China, for instance, has all KINDS of laws and statutes about infringement. Very strict. Very heavy. They take it very seriously. They take everything very seriously. They pride themselves on how seriously they take their laws. So don't let anyone tell you China has no such laws. They do. Patent; copyright; they even have *intention* laws in case they suspect you of *wanting* to infringe. They are very thoroughly written and cover absolutely everything.

So, you gotta beef? Okay, you wade through the morass of paperwork to file an international lawsuit in the People's Republic. You pay for the court, the support staff, the lights, the parking, the refreshments... you get the idea. Oh, and a few greased palms along the way to actually get the paperwork moving.

Your case isn't heard by a 'jury of your peers'. Don't be silly. First off as a non-Chinese, you are scum. These people are racist like no southern sheriff you've ever concocted. They make skinheads looks tolerant and cosmopolitan. So you, round-eye scum, have brought suit against an honorable businessman? They'll very politely say, "Okay, let's have a look at your case." (Got a feel for it, yet?)

After lengthy examination by what is usually a mere tribunal of party elders - and you pay for every hour of their time - the decision comes forth. That EXACT Chinese knockoff? Of Gucci? or Starbucks? Or a thousand other brands or a million literature/software titles? (These are WAY ahead of music gear in market dollars.) Well, we looked at it, and nope, we just don't see the infringement, there. Here, we'll look again. Naaaaaahhhh.... not seein' it. Sorry. We examined every word of the law and we think the honorable industry mogul that employs thousands of our countrymen has carefully and thoughtfully invented an ORIGINAL design that, resemblant as it may be, is definitely not an infringing copy. Definitely not. No crime here. Case dismissed. Oh, and you now need to pay exorbitant filing fees for the paperwork handling of this 'decision'.

Now, how many similar outcomes does it take before round-eye (or really, any non-Chinese foreigner) gets the idea? About 100, thus far, but we've gotten the idea. And it's not just us. They knock off everything from everyone that they think they can use. Japanese, Euro, Auz, you name it. The Chinese are masters of imitation, but not so great with invention. Woe betide the fool that thinks they can knock-off one of their knock-offs, though. This is identical in every respect to using the n-word if you're not. Or I can pound on my baby brother but if I catch anyone else, they're dead meat.

Now that's the China side of it. The best a company can do -- and they've been doing it -- is get it stopped in our import/customs process. We say, sure, China, build all you want, you just can't sell it here. They've been quite successful. We get a better shake over here but EVEN THEN we don't always win in our own courts.

The substandard counterfeiting has been getting out of hand because we're now (in the last decade) finding things like aircraft navigational instruments that have been present in at least three different crashes. Our courts set up and take notice of that kind of stuff. Compressors and limiters, not so much, but dead bodies and big insurance payouts, yes. And what's to stop them? They can get containers full of live humans into SNF and Long Beach, so what's a few million electronic components? Again, it's about the money, so the battle is ongoing.

I could launch into a whole lecture on the evils of when Bill Clinton awarded China a Most Favored Nation (MFN) trade status. That was just days after the crash of Flight 800. But I'll leave that to others to connect those dots. MFN has allowed most of this and has only been rolled back in tiny bits and special cases over the years. It is possible it will be greatly curtailed in the next few months. If so, many will shriek and howl and use much ugly and ignorant rhetoric to decry it. What will really happen is the very rich international investors, making a boat load of loot, will now make a lesser boatload of loot and you know how they cry about that, and hire others to cry for them. Truth and fairness doesn't matter, only money. So don't get caught up in the prism of public opinion on that, just sayin'...

The whole thing is way above my pay grade. The sums are colossal. The actions are often dark and suspicious. We gear-mongers are WAY down the food chain on this. We're seeing the very tip of the fracas. And that's probably a good thing.

There is one bit of silver lining, though. The only thing worse than working in a Chinese factory is NOT working in a Chinese factory. What a few under-informed call "exploitation" is, despite our Western sensitivities, "opportunity" and has lifted many thousands out of abysmal and dreadful poverty and into the luxury of a lifestyle resembling American inmates. So I have no unction against anyone purchasing Behringer (I own some, myself) or any other China-sourced gear.

okay, i've yapped enough.


Ponder5
 
China....I just watched a show some guy in Sweden or somewhere spent his life inventing a successful solar windmill enegry tower and seems as soon as he just started to reap some money from decades of inventing , CHina had ripped it off and was selling it and the worst part was the Governments who are supposed ot protect were buying the "copy-china" machines.

the rightful company was near bankrupt and losing bids to someone who had stolen his design and work.

no offense to the legal system but its a mess and the rotting away will continue, I dont see an end to it. Yeah we can all justify it in apathy prevailing attitudes (and it doesnt matter what we think anyway).

so I think I know who will lose market share and more jobs, and who will win marketshare.

from reading your informative post it sounds like greasy palms and culture racism is locked in.
the trend data shows a job sucking sound to CHina and a loud dumping of product on the rotting US consumer nation.
a bunch of consumers seems to be the purpose of US shoppers importance, consume more and more with 0% credit. lol

the formula is simple.
Losing Jobs + More Shopping = ?

Are amp sims made in the US better than Amp plugins made in China?

Maybe thats the line in the dirt with Trump.....you either do nothing or you make a hard-right turn. Either way could get real ugly, or maybe nothing happens.
 
no offense to the legal system but its a mess and the rotting away will continue, I dont see an end to it. Yeah we can all justify it in apathy prevailing attitudes (and it doesnt matter what we think anyway).
Our legal system is the worst there is... except for all the others.
But you're right. Basically, you're right about most all of it.
But let's remember this: a honest and forthright legal system can only come about from an honest and forthright people. We just came out of an election of fraud, deceit, dishonesty, and every other kind of allegation you'd ever wanna hear. We sent TROOPS into Bosnia because of "election irregularities" and now we're every bit the same. So how can we expect any more or less from our legal system?

And truly, as bad as ours is, China's government is not one of self-determination and the voice of the people. It's about power, influence, and all the worst aspects of bureaucracy. So how can we expect any more or less from THEIR legal system?

The question is about trade.

We just came through a time of no-holds-barred neo-capitalism where anything that made money was considered good. Not responsible capitalism, but neo/crony capitalism. There are no 'sides' as in opposing parties. There are no politics. There is only money.

Time was, nations used tariffs. To protect domestic industries, we'd impose tariffs to discourage wanton importation and foreign subjugation and exploitation. Today, the talking heads (rich investors, themselves) all tell us that this is BAD. After all, it must be, because it makes LESS money for them. Like i said, the sums are colossal. Truth is the first casualty.

so I think I know who will lose market share and more jobs, and who will win marketshare.

from reading your informative post it sounds like greasy palms and culture racism is locked in.
Absolutely. I can't imagine how it will even BEGIN to change. We're getting worse, ourselves, but they're not getting any better. Hate to be the pessimist, here.
the trend data shows a job sucking sound to CHina and a loud dumping of product on the rotting US consumer nation.
a bunch of consumers seems to be the purpose of US shoppers importance, consume more and more with 0% credit. lol
Hundreds of thousands, if not MILLIONS of jobs have already migrated to China.

We have no one to blame but ourselves, mind you.

I will NEVER blame the American worker. That's absolutely ridiculous. Anyone that does is simply unfit for civil conversation. I will, however, blame American executives including politicians (that do what The Rich desire). Congress gave tax *credits* (not write-offs, credits) for those companies investing abroad. Then they sent regulators to lean on any kind of industry they could. Between the carrot and the stick, how could they NOT do it? They had to move offshore. Then, endless products came washing in at simply unheard-of low prices. How can you blame the consumer? How can you "buy American" if your own government is fighting against you? Again, both 'sides' are to blame because it's only about money. Find a legislator, on either 'side', that is NOT a millionaire investor.

Overall, sure a lotta people lost their livelihood, but a lot of investors made tremendous returns. I'm talking 4 and 5 digit returns! Yes, 20,000% and up. The profits were and still are staggering. The consumer products are actually only a portion. The real returns are in heavy industrial products and supplies that are now incredibly expensive to make here (like steel or lead) but amazingly cheap to make there.

the formula is simple.
Losing Jobs + More Shopping = ?

Are amp sims made in the US better than Amp plugins made in China?

Maybe thats the line in the dirt with Trump.....you either do nothing or you make a hard-right turn. Either way could get real ugly, or maybe nothing happens.
Contrary to what you'll hear on various networks, we are headed over the economic cliff at breakneck speed. Something has to be done. No differently than not taking care of your own self: you can ignore it and collapse and then stop everything until you recover OR you can make some hard decisions right now. The "mortgage crisis" of 2008 is a good example of neglecting everything and paying the worst possible price and STILL not getting any healthier. Both 'sides' were indictable; we paid for it.

Again, it's above my pay grade, but we need to make it less complex and more straightforward which requires more honesty, somehow. But on the good side, just my opinion, I'd rather have a benevolent billionaire than a vindictive socialist or a career bureaucrat making these decisions. Runaway capitalism is absolutely no good and i think we as a nation have learned that. But the only thing worse is runaway regulation and oversight and the whole world knows that. I say follow the money and put 'em up against the wall.


Ponder5
 
Overall, sure a lotta people lost their livelihood, but a lot of investors made tremendous returns. I'm talking 4 and 5 digit returns! Yes, 20,000% and up. The profits were and still are staggering. The consumer products are actually only a portion. The real returns are in heavy industrial products and supplies that are now incredibly expensive to make here (like steel or lead) but amazingly cheap to make there.

Contrary to what you'll hear on various networks, we are headed over the economic cliff at breakneck speed. Something has to be done. No differently than not taking care of your own self: you can ignore it and collapse and then stop everything until you recover OR you can make some hard decisions right now. The "mortgage crisis" of 2008 is a good example of neglecting everything and paying the worst possible price and STILL not getting any healthier. Both 'sides' were indictable; we paid for it.

Again, it's above my pay grade, but we need to make it less complex and more straightforward which requires more honesty, somehow. But on the good side, just my opinion, I'd rather have a benevolent billionaire than a vindictive socialist or a career bureaucrat making these decisions. Runaway capitalism is absolutely no good and i think we as a nation have learned that. But the only thing worse is runaway regulation and oversight and the whole world knows that. I say follow the money and put 'em up against the wall.

Ponder5
Interesting stuff.
And when I go to our financial advisor I ask them 'what about [the trillions of debt] and the next big 'correction' [read crash].
And they go 'No, we don't see any 'caution indicators! I held my tongue, but wonder- did they see 'indicators' the last time half our retirements vaporized?
 
Well, this is all getting pretty far afield from the forum or the topic, but one thing I'd put out there is that a year from now, you'll be seeing an unmistakable uptick in disposable income, overall. That's my prediction, anyway.

That translates into more music; more concerts; more ticket sales; more online song sales; and more gear being acquired, both new and used. For makers of music, things will get better, I think.

If we can just make it through the next news cycle without pulling our own hair out, I think there's a lot of indicators (record stock market?) that say we MIGHT be in for a time of renewed prosperity.

Maybe not if a guy is a lifelong bureaucrat, but for the rest of us working stiffs, it might be good for at least a little while. Might even start showing as soon as summertime - though it won't be reported that way. Notta chance.

Or the whole thing might go Tango Uniform. Don't really know. But for the moment, those crash indicators you speak of, IMO, are some distance out there.

Ponder5
 
Interesting stuff.
And when I go to our financial advisor I ask them 'what about [the trillions of debt] and the next big 'correction' [read crash].
And they go 'No, we don't see any 'caution indicators! I held my tongue, but wonder- did they see 'indicators' the last time half our retirements vaporized?

Apparently a few people did. Have you seen The Big Short?
 
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