preamp transformers

kojdogg

kojdogg

bollocks redux!
hey-- can any of the smart people here tell me what's more important to the sound of a signal that passes through the preamp-- the input transformer or the output transformer?
tia for any help. :)
 
Well, if the pre has both it would be good for the signal to go through both of them.

Otherwise you have no output. :D
 
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That's like asking which is more important - the car's engine or the wheels? They both do different things, and are crucial to electrical signals from your instrument turning into amplified sound.
 
right :)
i'm asking because i have a chameleon labs 7602 and want to upgrade either the input transformer or the output transformer and am wondering which would potentially yield the greater sonic gain. i realize that it's subjective-- just looking for opinions.
 
I'll go out on an uneducated limb and say the input transformer, especially if the primary side has multiple taps for use with mics of varying impedence.
 
c7sus said:
Don't take my word for it!
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fair enough-- i appreciate the input either way. i've actually heard as much and am still mulling this over-- there's always other gear! :)
 
kojdogg-
just out of curiosity, how do you like the 7602? I'm in the market for pres right now, and the 7602 is one that i was considering. What kinda instruments/genres do you use it for? Buying new stuff always kinda scares me when i can't hear it, but owner testimonials are always good :)
 
i like it a lot actually. a year ago i was recording everything on an art tps, and now i have the 7602 and a ua m610 (and some mackie onyx preamps that don't get used as much but are still def decent). stuff sounds better solo'ed for sure, but when i mix it's really awesome. i barely eq anything and it's so much easier to set levels and the resulting mix is so much better because you don't have all this starved tube "warmth" (i.e. distortion) messing everything up.
edit: worth mentioning is that the eq on the 7602 is awesome. i use it any time i use the preamp. great on everything, but especially electric guitar (for me)
 
My .02 -

I would research a bit about the different transformers. It will help YOU decide which is more important, as well as what changing to the different types of transformers will do to the sound. They have a pretty big impact on the sound.

It's funny how many people ask about tubes, but almost nobody asks about transformers........
 
coolwhip said:
That's like asking which is more important - the car's engine or the wheels?
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Accept there aren"t any Cars that don"t have wheels or Engines and work but there are Many Preamp designs that do not have an input or output transformer.....

In the present day of Solid State electronics you can use discrete components or IC to replace Transformers with the benefit of saveing Space and Money in the manufacturing Process.....

Most Solid State preamps and Mixers these days are fully transformerless, even the really high end stuff (I"m sure there are a few exceptions) as they realized you can create a good sounding preamp for cheaper and in a smaller space without useing transformers.....

I actually just aquired 6 small audio transformers to play arround with as I have never used them for much so I am going to see what I can do with them in some preamp designs I have.....

Cheers


PS: Good Input and Output transformers are ones like "Lundahl" and "Jensen" and "Cinemag" and "Sowter" and there are others....These companies sell both input and output transformers and of allmost any winding type and Ratio so find out what type of transformers your unit needs and then go to one of those companies sites and see what replacements the have for you....

I recomend either the Lundahl or the Jensen Transformers as they are accepted as some of the best sounding audio transformers.....
 
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can any of the smart people here tell me what's more important to the sound of a signal that passes through the preamp-- the input transformer or the output transformer?
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It depends on many variables but assuming the same materials for both then it would depend on the step up or step down ratio.More often than not , the input transformer has a higher step ratio than an output transformer. Sometimes 600:70,000 is encountered in some valve amps yet output transformers can be wound to be simply 'isolation ' transformers whose impedance would be 1:1 or 600 ohm : 600 ohm . These 'isolation' transformers would yeild much less color than one of two extreme impedances such as an input transformer.
Input transformers also have a much lighter gauge of wire in their primary to fit it all on the core as there are usually more turns. This means , by their very nature , have a much lower ceiling to distortion than an output transformer whose conditioning would be to handle hotter signals from the output stage.
 
I've talked to designers about where to put the "iron" in the signal path if you want to indeed put it somewhere in the path. There's no universal agreement on the subject as to whether input transformer gets you more of whatever it is a transformer can bring to the sound versus output transformer. I think more probably give the nod to input transformer if you force them to pick one over the other. I think the number one thing is to get a good transformer in there (on the input or output) whether it be Lundahl, Cinemag or Jensen or some other one.
 
c7sus said:
Well, if the pre has both it would be good for the signal to go through both of them.

Otherwise you have no output. :D
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????


Now, to answer the original question, when used in a micpre, the input transformer is doing a helluva lot more work than the output transformer, and, in my experience has made the biggest difference when experimenting. While trying out different transformers, swap out one at a time, then live with it for a couple of weeks, in a heavy tracking environment. Over time, you'll either start to use it more, or use it less.
 
drpat said:
????


Now, to answer the original question, when used in a micpre, the input transformer is doing a helluva lot more work than the output transformer, and, in my experience has made the biggest difference when experimenting. While trying out different transformers, swap out one at a time, then live with it for a couple of weeks, in a heavy tracking environment. Over time, you'll either start to use it more, or use it less.
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Thanks man. Hey anyone know of a good tech in the Westchester County/NYC area who could do this (i.e. swap out the input transformer out on my CL?)? Also, anyone in the know, any idea as to how long this would take and/or how much stuff like this would cost to do (approx. industry standards)?
 
I do know someone who you can send it to that could do it for you and he is "VERY" Good but it will probably cost you some serious cash to pay him or anyone to do this, Probably between $150 and $250+ for parts and labor and other expences....
If you could do it yourself it would only cost you maybe $50-$75 for the Transformers and thats it but to pay someone with experience and knows what he is doing is going to cost you about $75 an Hour and it will take at least an hour maybe more depending on how the circuit board is layed out and the available space in the rack case.....

I"m sure the Transformers that come with your chameleon labs 7602 are pretty darn good as it is a Pretty nice piece of equipment it is well built and designed and it uses very high end components so an upgrade in transformers might not show much if any improvement in sound....

If you do decide to switch the transformers I would be interested in buying the old ones from you if you are willing to sell them??

If you need info on the person I know of who can do this for you let me know by PM and i will get the info and pass it on to you....


Cheers
 
Hey, thanks for the info. If I'm going to do this, I'm trying to find someone local to avoid shipping to and fro. I got a tip on another MB for these people:
http://www.alactronics.com/home/home.htm
and though they're not exactly local, I do make my way to that area fairly often (am from the Boston area), and could probably work it into a trip. Thanks also for the comment on the build and component quality of the 7602-- If I'm going to swap out the transformer, I'm going to make sure it's something better (already have a specific idea) :)
As for selling the stock, if I do it, I will keep you in mind.
 
I don't know if you tried group DIY?

http://www.prodigy-pro.com/forum/

A helpful bunch of guys there, there might be someone who'd do it for you but in keeping with the DIY ethos it's also fairly likely they'll point you towards a group buy and tell you to fit it yourself. :D

Looks like there's a Marinair (carnhill) group buy just getting warmed up if you're intereted in that sort of thing.

If you search around there is a stack of info on different types of iron too (how it will sound etc).
 
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