no preamp vs cheap preamp

[apl]

...the lone voice in the darkness that says You don't need it to make a decent CD or money recording others...

Dude, you're no lone voice! Lots of us tightwad practical types here.

 

[distortedrumble]

i bought all my stuff for me...i record bands so i can better my technique...they pay me when i ask them too...the money i make off of it is put back into other studio equipment that i want to buy...or its put in my gas tank....have you seen gas prices lately!!?

 

[Treeline]

IMO, you should get a M-Audio DMP3 now and start recording... later after you've gained a little more experience you'll have a better idea what more you want/need.

WHAT HE SAID!







​

 

[TomBo777]

i bought all my stuff for me...i record bands so i can better my technique...they pay me when i ask them too...the money i make off of it is put back into other studio equipment that i want to buy...or its put in my gas tank....have you seen gas prices lately!!?

Thats a great plan...Always let the gear pay for itself somehow AND be a tax write off at the same time.

 

[SonicAlbert]

I get gigs because I sound better than the next guy. I don't do local bands making their first CD, I'm competing against other pros. So the tightwad penny-pinching "that's good enough" approach just doesn't cut it where I'm coming from, and where I am going. The people I deal with *can* hear the difference and make their decisions based on their ears, among other factors.

I'm a composer, pianist/keyboardist, and synth programmer. I live on my writing, my sound, and my playing chops. If the other guys are using el cheapo lame synths or studios with a couple lousy fx boxes and I come in with the good stuff, you better believe it makes a difference in who gets hired.

I keep forgetting this is "home recording" .com. Maybe I should just cool it on the great gear advice thing. I'm right when it comes to creating a top-notch product, but maybe I'm not right when comes to making home recordings. It might not be the right advice for hobbiests and part-timers.

But I think great sound is great sound whether you are doing it for yourself or doing it professionally. It's hard to stomach it when I read people saying that their $200 gizmo is as good as the $2,000 model, and who cares anyway because nobody can tell the difference. Man is that wrong. I personally don't care if every single person who hears my recordings can't tell the difference, because if *I* can, that's all that matters. I just can't think that other way. And once again, I do believe people *can* tell the difference, even if they are untrained and can't say exactly why they prefer A over B.

TomBo777, you say you record plenty of bands getting started and like helping them. That's great, I mean it, the world needs people like you. But if you had a higher end studio, don't you think you'd attract a higher level of group to work with, bigger name bands? Maybe get some label work? You have matched your gear to your clientele (or vice versa however that works karmically), but those bigger opportunity doors are shut to you until you have the type of studio that they require.

This is a great thread, if somewhat contentious at times. But it is an important discussion to have.

 

[regebro]

This is a fantastically stupid thread, and one of the reasons is that people have not only different requirements, but different budgets. And recommending the same gear for a guy starting out with recording that has a total budget of $1000 as to a pro studio with a budget hindreds of times that size, is stupid.

And yet, that seems to be what half of the people in this thread continue to do.

Give it up, all of you. The only one to decide if a high-end preamp is gonna improve your sound is you. And if you have to ask if you need a better preamp, the answer is "no".

 

[DJL]

Originally Posted by DJL
IMO, you should get a M-Audio DMP3 now and start recording... later after you've gained a little more experience you'll have a better idea what more you want/need.

WHAT HE SAID!







​

I'll second that.

 

[Be Loveless]

Whatever gets the job done, gets the job done. I just finished my new demo on a tascam 488, mostly direct guitars and bass, an alesis drum machine, a behringer effects box, and a ecm 8000 on vocals, no compression, CDs labled with Sharpie, Inserts copied at kinkos. I'm really proud of what I was able to achieve with this equipment. WAAAAY better quality than my first demo using basically the same equipment. I enjoy what I have done.
The 488 died almost immediately after mixdown, I have purchased a yamaha MD8 which to me is a major Step up.

 

[ragyl indonesia]

stop..

stop talking about gear ok !!!
just make music and good song !!!!
because listener doesn't care about the gear...
they listen to the song and the music..THATS ALL !!!

"WONDERFUL WORLD" AND "MY WAY" AND "IMAGINE"
will be live forever to them.. they dont care about the gear !!!
song,song,song... just thing about the SONGS OK?

what about this comment????????????

 

[Henri Devill]

stop talking about gear ok !!!
just make music and good song !!!!
because listener doesn't care about the gear...
they listen to the song and the music..THATS ALL !!!

"WONDERFUL WORLD" AND "MY WAY" AND "IMAGINE"
will be live forever to them.. they dont care about the gear !!!
song,song,song... just thing about the SONGS OK?

what about this comment????????????

I agree ..But the bar has been raised in the past few years{4track cassetts to computers Bla Bla Bla}..If you are a artist you have to care somewhat about presention..And performers/musicans have slightly different expectaions than "recordist"/"engineers" And if you are wearing two hats ..well you know LOL

Edit..This is for folks working on the cheap...

 

[borntoplease]

okay. so i spent all day at GC yesterday buying gear. i was A/Bing preamps... let me tell you, people who defend behringer dont make sense to me. why spend money on shit? i brought my girlfriend over who knows nothing about recording, but a lot about music, and had her turn her back to the pre amp rack. she listened to 4 preamps... she nailed each one from most expensive to cheapest, in relation to sound quality. she said, with no prying from me... that the last 2 (both behringer) sounded like shit and hurt her ears. i just smiled. anyway. its clear there is a HUGE difference. i dont see why people cant save 475 bucks and get an RNP. i think it is 4 times better than ANY 100 dollar pre out there. there is plenty in that price range that can offer a HUGE improvement over behringer and ART crap. the fact is, most people dont know what they are listening for, and anything sounds good to them. just as long as is has a "tube" or "cool lights" and the brain dead sales man at GC center says it compares to an avalon, and it sounds really vintage and warm. BARF!!!!! anyway. i had fun at GC yesterday. what was really cool, is that the guy helping me in the pro audio department plays bass (i think, maybe guitar) for the descendents. i dont know if i spelled that right, whatever. i guess he moved to tulsa to be with his wife and got a job there. oh well, im getting off topic.
all this to say... yes, there is a difference, and even my girlfriend thinks its obvious.

peace

 

[SonicAlbert]

okay. so i spent all day at GC yesterday buying gear. i was A/Bing preamps... let me tell you, people who defend behringer dont make sense to me. why spend money on shit? i brought my girlfriend over who knows nothing about recording, but a lot about music, and had her turn her back to the pre amp rack. she listened to 4 preamps... she nailed each one from most expensive to cheapest, in relation to sound quality. she said, with no prying from me... that the last 2 (both behringer) sounded like shit and hurt her ears. i just smiled. anyway. its clear there is a HUGE difference. i dont see why people cant save 475 bucks and get an RNP.

THANK YOU!!!

A guy who actually does a blind A/B test just to see for himself what's going on. I predict a bright future for you.

The economics of it may be a different story for different people, but I agree in principle about saving up for better equipment. That's always been worth it for me. At this very moment I am saving up for gear to replace older less good gear. Without fail any time I've attempted to cut corners it always comes back to haunt me in the form of spending more to do it right later.

 

[teainthesahara]

okay. so i spent all day at GC yesterday buying gear. i was A/Bing preamps... let me tell you, people who defend behringer dont make sense to me. why spend money on shit? i brought my girlfriend over who knows nothing about recording, but a lot about music, and had her turn her back to the pre amp rack. she listened to 4 preamps... she nailed each one from most expensive to cheapest, in relation to sound quality. she said, with no prying from me... that the last 2 (both behringer) sounded like shit and hurt her ears. i just smiled. anyway. its clear there is a HUGE difference. i dont see why people cant save 475 bucks and get an RNP. i think it is 4 times better than ANY 100 dollar pre out there. there is plenty in that price range that can offer a HUGE improvement over behringer and ART crap. the fact is, most people dont know what they are listening for, and anything sounds good to them. just as long as is has a "tube" or "cool lights" and the brain dead sales man at GC center says it compares to an avalon, and it sounds really vintage and warm. BARF!!!!! anyway. i had fun at GC yesterday. what was really cool, is that the guy helping me in the pro audio department plays bass (i think, maybe guitar) for the descendents. i dont know if i spelled that right, whatever. i guess he moved to tulsa to be with his wife and got a job there. oh well, im getting off topic.
all this to say... yes, there is a difference, and even my girlfriend thinks its obvious.

peace

I don't think anyone would disagree necessarily with what you heard. But it is also a question of perspective. For many a home recorder, that same 475 could be spent elswhere giving not just a HUGE difference, but a HUGE X ___enter number difference! I would way rather spend 475 on a new mic than some preamp. For me, thats where the HUGE differences, as far as electronics go, will lie on the home front! What ya really need to do is listen to a bunch of mixes done with those inexpesive, sub 200 dollar preamps. See what you liked and didnt like about the production - and chances are, "i didnt like this aspect cause they used X preamp" will be very low on the totem pole.

 

[teainthesahara]

THANK YOU!!!

A guy who actually does a blind A/B test just to see for himself what's going on. I predict a bright future for you.

It is a shame that Ed Rei got booted from this board and all his posts were deleted! That dude was the A/B man - extensive expereince with cheap and expensive preamps. He would throw up some mixes done with ordinary, cheap home recording equipment, including "crappy" preamps, that would really make you think about where your recording dollars should go.

 

[SonicAlbert]

It is a shame that Ed Rei got booted from this board and all his posts were deleted! That dude was the A/B man - extensive expereince with cheap and expesive preamps. He would throw up some mixes done with ordinary, cheap home recording equipment, including "crappy" preamps, that would really make you think about where your recording dollars should go.

There's no question that blind A/B tests will lead to surprising outcomes. I've been very shocked myself at times!

I think it might be harder to do a fair A/B on a full production than on single pieces of equipment though. The reason being that on a fully produced track the skills of the recordist/engineer/mixer/musicians come into play a great deal. The only way to do that comparison properly would be to record the same band on the same song with different gear. Maybe have multiple setups recording at once. Cheap, medium and expensive gear. Then have the same guy mix them on the various different costing studios. Otherwise, there are too many variables to make it much of a meaningful pure gear comparison.

I don't remember this Ed Rei guy. That's pretty harsh, deleting all his posts. He must have really teed someone off.

 

[TomBo777]

TomBo777, you say you record plenty of bands getting started and like helping them. That's great, I mean it, the world needs people like you. But if you had a higher end studio, don't you think you'd attract a higher level of group to work with, bigger name bands? Maybe get some label work? You have matched your gear to your clientele (or vice versa however that works karmically), but those bigger opportunity doors are shut to you until you have the type of studio that they require.

I am not interested in attrating a higher level of groups. The expense to compete in that world is too much considering the business available. Many Great studios are out of business or close to it. I don't want to be apart of that world. This is a Home Studio thread and so being it should cover a lot of low end gear for those who want or have modest studios. I don't think there should be people feeling like they cannot make a decent recording without spending thousands and thousands of dollars. Especially today.

20 years ago you had to pay thousands for any large diaphram mic. Now you can get one that does a great job for much less and that goes for the entire recording chain. Companies like Alesis,Cakewalk, Ensoniq, Mackie and others helped us poor kids with only PC's get started with affordable gear that emulated very high priced stuff , albeit not as good, but we got to have digital recordings, digital reverbs, samplers nevertheless and learn on them.

Recording is "hobby" income and my niche of poor musicians will ALWAYS be there.. Most bands do not get deals, but they do sell product at gigs. If they do get a deal, the record company will re record them anyway..perhaps in your studios on your UA's, Avalons , Manleys or whatever the flavor of the week is.

Guys. Im not saying the expensive gear is a total waste of money. (Well in some cases I do think there are huge diminishing returns in relation to price). I am just saying you do not NEED that gear to make a good sounding product and becasue of the limitations of low end gear perhaps one might get much better in technique as well to compensate for some issues the higher end stuff does not present. If some cannot use an Alesis 3630..they are wasting their money on a high end compressor.

 

[TomBo777]

I have to agree with those who say you should A/B the ENTIRE mix. Naked you will hear the difference....how much is subjective and is described by words in themselves are subjective.

I spent around $500 on my VCQ1 and yes it was better than the ART MP...but It was and is enough. I dont know if its prosumer or pro or budget...But I like the thing and still do. BUt I would not tell someone to save up another $400 for one if they do have the ART MP.......I think they should start recording as soon as possible and make music. Replace the gear when you want to.

Otherwise you keep waiting for the next bus when you can get on the one in front of you and at least go somewhere.

As a home studio rat for 30 or so years I know what its like being a gear pimp. Waiting for the next issue of Electronic Musiciam or H&S Recording and the MF or AMS catalogs to arrive. (Never subscribed to MIX ,can ya tell?). Drooling over the next big thing. Wishing I could afford this. Saving and buying it. It never ends. I guess as one gets older, hip is less important and substance is key. At some point you have to focus on the content.

Been through a few tape formats, then ADAT, HD, now computer and digital..I have a pile of this stuff in my attic. LOL. ..it never ends and when it does...then its all about going backwards and capturing the "vintage" sound. Buying the modern "vintage" gear or real old gear at a huge price........... "Yeah but its a good "vintage" noise"!!!!!

Why?
Because theres only so much you can do with circuits that surpass what the human ear is really capable of processing in a recording thats being played in a high SNR enviornment anyway. MArketing and "cool" is alive and well in the Home Studio environment.

 

[SonicAlbert]

As a home studio rat for 30 or so years I know what its like being a gear pimp. Waiting for the next issue of Electronic Musiciam or H&S Recording and the MF or AMS catalogs to arrive. (Never subscribed to MIX ,can ya tell?). Drooling over the next big thing. Wishing I could afford this. Saving and buying it. It never ends. I guess as one gets older, hip is less important and substance is key. At some point you have to focus on the content.

Been through a few tape formats, then ADAT, HD, now computer and digital..I have a pile of this stuff in my attic. LOL. ..it never ends and when it does...then its all about going backwards and capturing the "vintage" sound. Buying the modern "vintage" gear or real old gear at a huge price........... "Yeah but its a good "vintage" noise"!!!!!

Maybe you should go to the attic, take some pictures and eBay that old stuff. Turn it into money to buy some new gear with. That's what I've done. I had enough gear stored in my garage to build a complete studio B with. But it was a waste to have it sitting there, basically money sitting in a garage. So I sold it off and bought a few great new pieces for my studio.

I agree very much with the part about getting older and going more for substance. That has definitely been my experience as well. 10-15 years ago my idea of a happening studio was stacks of great synths and modules all hooked up to crappy line mixers and a couple fx boxes. I had no concept of pro audio at all. It took a long time, but now my studio has a good balance of pro audio quality gear. It's solid conceptually as a studio design, not just a collection of synths.

I think some of the best values in gear are in certain vintage units, just not the ones that have gotten priced sky-high. Some of the 70's and 80's vintage DBX pro gear is great in my opinion. And a lot of it is still cheap. While many seem willing to pay big bucks for vintage tube gear, I've enjoyed picking up a few selected DBX solid state units that I think sound great. Much more of a vibe and tone than newer gear available for the same price. There are other units like that as well from other makers. The key for me is that they be pro audio in design and build quality.

Guys. Im not saying the expensive gear is a total waste of money. (Well in some cases I do think there are huge diminishing returns in relation to price). I am just saying you do not NEED that gear to make a good sounding product and becasue of the limitations of low end gear perhaps one might get much better in technique as well to compensate for some issues the higher end stuff does not present. If some cannot use an Alesis 3630..they are wasting their money on a high end compressor.

The thing about budget gear is that the sweet spot is the size of a postage stamp. It's really small. So what happens is that you end up working around the limitations of the equipment. Which is fine if the sweet spot of the gear corresponds with what you need to do musically. But if it doesn't then you are screwed. You end up making recording and mix decisions based on the limitations of the gear rather than what you really might *want* to do.

Great gear has a huge sweet spot. That allows you to take the gear to extremes without having problems with S/N issues, distortion, and various unpleasant artifacts. You can mix the way you want and deal less with working around gear limitations.

Those people that show off great sounding recordings made with budget gear, that's what they did. They found the sweet spot for their gear and worked within it. So it can sound fine. But that worked for them and that music. I've tried that and it doesn't work for me. I don't like to have to work around the gear like that, and believe me I've had to do it.

I suppose as far as the technique of compensating for gear limitations, there is some value in learning how to do that. But ultimately it just gives one an appetite for something better to work with.

As far as Joe Meek gear, great recordings can be made with Meek in the rack. I have an SC 2.2 and a VC5 and I like them a lot!

 

[zimmo]

Hey folks!
I *just* signed up, and this was the first thread I jumped on. Read it end to end, & enjoyed it. I must've googled at least half a dozen pieces of gear, as I'm picking up the desire to improve my recordings, and skill as a listener/recordist. I'm using a BR1180, and find the preamps just don't cut it for me, anymore. It's a pretty limited recorder, with no outboard effects i/o's.
As a comment on Behringer...I own several pieces:
V-amp pro, Virtualizer pro, 8 channel mixer, GX212 guitar amp, FCB1010 midi-foot-controller, and as of yesterday the Truth B2031A active monitors.
For me, the mixer is "just ok" for sending signals to the monitors/routing. The V-amp is decent, though you need to tweek it to get some nice tone...like everything I suppose. The guitar amp is really nice, for the $200 tag. The Midi controller, once programmed, works well every time.
OK. I'm not a big fan of the sound quality of Behringer! However, these "Truth" monitors sound really nice to me. Very revealing, & glad I got them.
The rest of the audio stuff is annoyingly noisy, for recording purposes.

As to the recommendations made here, and given the prices, the FMR really nice preamp looks pretty good for an upgrade. My problem is going to be finding a pro audio outlet within half a day's drive to listen to it! hehe

This BB looks like a time zapper, with a wealth of information! I hope I'll still find time to practice. Maybe we should get a laptop for the crapper?

 

[ragyl indonesia]

go

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