Yamaha MIDI velocity issue

Crackhatch

New member
I have a Yamaha DGX 620 connected to Cubase with Komplete VST software. When loading a Kontakt Piano VST, the Yamaha is not loud enough, which effects the sound quality. I know this because I have referenced from other people playing the software on videos and also I have connected a small MIDI controller and ergo it creates a superior sound. If I bash the Yamaha keys really hard, it brings about that bright, brilliant sound, so I know it is a volume/velocity issue. I have tried all the settings on the keyboard and, not being particularly great with computers, I've tried everything I can see on both the DAW and the laptop. I am using the correct and up to date drivers. Acquiring a new MIDI keyboard is a pain in the backside as I have come to learn, since they're not generally on display in music shops, so I would love to keep this keyboard. Anyone know of anything about this issue that could help? I've heard older Yamahas can behave like this.
 
There are a number of things you don't explain about this 'problem' that make it difficult to answer, but I'll start with one thing.

How are you hearing this?

Your message implies that you are listening to a mix of sound from the keyboard, and sound direct from the computer (incl the VST), and that in this configuration the sound from the VST is louder that the sound from the keyboard. Is that so? You also imply that this is ONLY when using BOTH the keyboard AND the VST, i.e. that if you're using just one or the other then the level from the keyboard is OK?

I don't know what sort of master level setting the Yamaha has, but if it's OK normally that that isn't the problem.

I don't know how your units are connected, you don't say. Is the keyboard making it's sounds directly, i.e. press key, make sound, or is Cubase involved (i.e. press key, midi signal to Cubase, Cubase does something and sends midi data to keyboard which then makes sound). Further details of this could help answer the question.

Generally, there are a number settings that could affect your problem, settings within the keyboard generally, the overall system, even settings within the specific tone parameters.

One possible solution, suggested on the basis of very limited information provided, would be to connect sound output from keyboard and computer SEPARATELY to a mixer, and listen to the output from that, so that you can adjust the relative levels of the two sounds to get more of what you're hoping to hear?
If that does NOT help, then it comes back to midi levels?

Geoff
 
There are a number of things you don't explain about this 'problem' that make it difficult to answer, but I'll start with one thing.
Geoff

I'm sorry. My Yamaha keyboard goes straight in to the laptop via a USB A to B lead. I turn the local inbuilt sound off.

My sound comes back through a Scarlett 2i2 interface which I have monitors and headphones connected to.

When I load a piano VST on Cubase and play the keys of the Yamaha, it comes back soft and quiet. However, when I play the keys of my mini MIDI keyboard (Akai lpk25), I get the proper sound quality of the VST instrument (due to velocity I feel).

I have tried every relevant setting on Cubase and every setting on the keyboard.

I'm afraid I'm not technical at all so I'm not sure what else to inform on.
 
Thank you, that's more helpful.

New question!

What midi channel does your Yamaha SEND on, and what channel does the Akai send on? Are they the same same channel? Many devices like these SEND on one specific channel, and not necessarily the same one. When Cubase is set to receive midi data on specific channels (or ALL) has anything been set that might affect the level received/processed on the channel used by the Yamaha, but there's a different setting on the channel used by the Akai?

Oh, you do not clarify part of my original query. With the setup you describe, if you play JUST the keyboard, and do NOT use the VST, does the level seem OK? If you change NO settings at all, but then play using BOTH keyboard and the VST, is the level of the keyboard now different (quieter) or is it in fact the same as it was, just that the XST is louder?

Oh, I might interpret your description differently, i.e. you are NOT generating ANY sound from the Yamaha, ONLY using the note on/off info, and the actual sound is being created ONLY by the VST. This could mean many of my earlier comments are inappropriate! But the question regarding the midi channels may be relevant. The manuals and the Midi Implementation Charts for the two controllers (Yamaha/Akai) could clarify.

Let's take things bit-by-bit.

Geoff
 
If you are using Cubase, just tweak the inspector box to add some velocity. The trouble with some keyboards is that the velocity sensitivity is not scaled very well, and you either have to play VERY hard to get a 127 out, while other keyboards give you maximum while playing quietly. The scaling feature in cubase just seems to add a number to whatever velocity amount comes in. You also have of course MIDI compressors to tweak this too. Plastic Yamaha keyboards always seem to have quite different responses. Weighted keyboards seem to have this better implemented, based on my own experience.
 
There's no problem, here.
MIDI spec lists velocity as 0-127.
But Yamaha has always output velocity as 0-100.
It's a Yamaha thing.

Ponder5
 
Hmm...

I've done a little google, brought up the manual for the DGX-620, and found the Midi Implementation Chart.

This says that Velocity transmitted is 1 to 127. Is this wrong then?

I've always found the MIC to be reliable. I'd guess that for midi licences, it SHOULD be?

Geoff
 
Further to the above, I've looked at other parts of the manual with regard to my earlier comments.

Firstly, I note that the MIC stated that this keyboard will transmit on Channels 1-16, i.e. all channels. Maybe there is something in operation settings to allow a specific channel to be selected, but I don't see anything yet. I assume from OP's comments that he's using the device as a controller keyboard, I don't see any mention in the 'Contents' of the manual specifically about this.

There is detail there about sending/downloading performance data from the keyboard to PC, etc, but this is all 'bulk' data.

Having got the manual, I'll keep looking.

Geoff
 
Oh, just looking again at OP's original messages.

It is suggested that if the key is hit really HARD, then this does achieve the expected loudness, although it is implied that hitting this hard is NOT convenient.

I wonder if something is set regarding 'velocity sensitivity'? Not sure what this might be? I'll look further in manual??

Geoff
 
Looking in the manual, page 70.

There's a section about setting 'Touch Response Sensitivity'.

What is your keyboard set to now?

You can set 1, 2, or 3. 2 is the default. 3 would produce a louder sound, i.e. more 'velocity', or rather more velocity for less force. Maybe this is the problem??

You can also set this to 4, but this basically removes ALL sensitivity, and makes it fixed, which you prob do NOT want.

Geoff
 
Hmm...

I've done a little google, brought up the manual for the DGX-620, and found the Midi Implementation Chart.

This says that Velocity transmitted is 1 to 127. Is this wrong then?

oh no, i'm sure you're fine. I'm passing on old news. For many years, Yamaha was a problem child when it came to midi velocity. Perhaps they've rectified that.

Ponder5
 
Yamaha generally recommends that the "channel volume" be set to (if I remember correctly) no more than 100, and in keeping with the spirit of their own advice they seem to set their preset voices to rather low "volume" settings. So in addition to trying different "Touch Sensitivity" settings to see which gives you the most desirable result-- I would recommend trying a setting of 3 if you're wanting higher velocities without having to pound on the keys-- you should also check the "Main Voice Volume" setting and turn it up as desired, because for some preset voices it's often set at a ridiculously low level.

Keep in mind that when you select a particular voice, the mere act of selecting that voice will automatically set the voice parameters to certain default values which are supposed to be "ideal" for that voice-- and that includes not only the voice's default Volume setting, but also (when you set the Main Voice) a particular Dual Voice and its default settings, plus things like default Harmony settings. Consequently you should pay attention to the order in which you change the various function settings-- i.e., you should always select the desired Main Voice first, then change the Main Voice settings as desired, then select the desired Dual Voice, then change the Dual Voice settings, then select the desired effects (Reverb Type, Chorus Type, Harmony Type, etc.) and any corresponding settings. That way you won't accidentally wipe out your settings because you did things in the wrong order.

Also, once you've got everything set the way you want, be sure to save the setup to a Registration so you can recall it whenever desired.
 
Ok guys, thank you for all your advice. I've been at the other end of the UK for a few days with my wife seeing the in-laws, so frustratingly I couldn't work on these issues. However I did get to try some of the things mentioned here before I went away. Nothing really worked in any discernible way. So I just decided to bite the bullet and get a new keyboard - Roland A-88 MIDI. It arrived today and er, I'm getting practically the same sound quality, with the Roland edging it on the dynamic range I can get (and incidentally it is a superior keyboard to play, lovely ivory feel keys). So what I did is listen to a whole host of piano soundtracks, both Komplete Kontakt 5 and regular piano audio from other people.

I now think I may have raised a bit of a false flag. Reading up on some comments people have made in forums, it seems the Kontakt 5 piano libraries are set low in volume. But the actual sound quality of the piano sounds really good. I think previous comparisons of other pianos may have been distorted by effects and settings users have made to their tracks. Now, this all sounds like good news, BUT... in among such issues, it had slipped my mind that there is a greater problem leaving everything else academic. I cannot play either keyboard for more than 5 minutes from loading my DAW, before the VST starts, how can I put this... cutting out, getting choppy, perhaps suffering buffering issues? I am such a layman with technology, I don't know the problem. I have just spent the last bit of luxury money I had on this A-88 - there is no point in having it if I can't play for more than 5 minutes at a time. I do have the option to return it, but I can't leave it too long, so I'm in a dilemma now.

I am going to list the technical aspects of my laptop and provide an audio sample of the way it cuts out in a few hours time. If anyone reads this in between them, should I post it here or should I start a new topic in a different area of the forum, as I think it may be a computer issue?
 
Regarding which sub-forum to post in, I think that's best answered by a mod, although you could go ahead and use your best judgment and then let the mods move your thread if they feel it really belongs in a different sub-forum than wherever you posted it.

As for the rest, a couple of things come to mind. I'd think that if it were a buffering issue per se, you'd notice problems right away. But I suppose that caching might have something to do with it. The other thing that comes to mind is overheating. The next time it happens, put your hand down by where the laptop vents and see if it feels like a blast of hot air coming from an oven. If the CPU's overheating from working too hard, maybe reducing the sample rate and bit depth might help?
 
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