Observations re my Bach midi/sampled piano?

johngrant

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLP5BZzcdRkq21rE5SoYC33Nxltdam8TPG

How do these pieces sound on YOUR equipment? Crappy? OK? etc.

I'm still not happy with a few of them. I like verb in general for solo classical (not everyone does) but sometimes the verb seems a bit too muddy, even for me. The piano sample sounds realistic to me through my MMGs, but not so much via a pair of Neumann monitors. Mind you, even the best piano recordings can sound less than great on the Neumanns.


They're all mastered differently (ie different Valhalla Vintage) settings. The sampled piano is Orchestral Tools Steinway B. My midi work, which I started many years ago, actually.
 
TBO, they sound very 60's. I remember some of Van's 60's Bach having that same ebb and flow of hiss and compression with the same bad reverb (which was actually the hall they were recorded in). Was nothing like hearing him live.
This piano sounds very much like a 7' D (ah, I see you listed it as a B). You say it's samples, and yet I can hear footwork in places (or did you just add thumps to make it sound like pedal release). There are some obvious places where you can tell it's midi, but overall, very well done.
As I listen to different compositions, I note that some are better than others. P&F 1 has the hiss and comp sound I was mentioning, but most of the rest don't. 4 is especially nice :)
7 is one of my favorite pieces from Bach, but the piano sounds very dark as if played with the sostenuto down at points. Is that intentional?
Anyway, out of time to listen. Very nice work.
 
Thanks. Yup, I meant D! Not B. I tried American Grand, UVI, Production Grand (Yamaha C?) 8 Dio, etc., etc... and it seemed to me that they all suffered even more from compression issues. All of them sound sonically dated, but the Orchestral Grand (Steinway D) was the least bothersome of the lot. The hiss is my fault. I need to remix, and I'm still trying to find a verb that works without destroying the actual characteristics of the original sample.

Looked up my lousy record-keeping on prelude and fugue 4 (C# Minor) and can tell you the verb: one of Kontakt's own convolution verbs "piano plate mit ER.wav" (a little German in there) as is, no predelay, wet set to -14.4. (I know I used Valhalla Vintage on some, with the MOD set to zero.) The verb issue is my big fat achilles heel.

Meanwhile, all the usual suspects at Youtube are piling on the "third party content" manure. Apparently it's not my midi, but an actual copy of S. Richter and others!

You just can't win. Some folks complain that MIDI is fake-sounding (ok, I know where they're coming from). Meanwhile YouTube is telling me that it's REAL: that I'm passing off a real pro-recording as my own.
 
MIDI is simply the communication medium - how it's generated and what it plays makes a HUGE difference.

For what it's worth, I think you're being too picky. The experts would find fault (they always do) but it sounds fine.

I must say I smiled about youtube identifying it as an existing recording. This happens with audio print type checking of traditional pieces because the piece is so similar to loads of others, and youtube cares little about quality.
 
I confess to having a wee perfectionist streak. Fact is: I've tried recording the stuff live, using a pair of AT 4041 mics and a Hailun 218 (nice piano), but it just didn't sound all that good. A lot of noise, obviously, which only a pro studio setting with super-quiet equipment can prevent. So on to sampled pianos, and midi, obviously.
 
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Van always made Back sound alive. You do a decent job of it yourself. Are you playing or scoring? It honestly sounds scored at some points, but it's hard to tell most of the time. Perfect playing can sound scored, as well. Thus my confusion.
 
Van always made Back sound alive. You do a decent job of it yourself. Are you playing or scoring? It honestly sounds scored at some points, but it's hard to tell most of the time. Perfect playing can sound scored, as well. Thus my confusion.

All the p & f are played in, in whole or in part, just to create the proper "feel". But having played in various chunks, I end up making a fantastic number of edits in midi. I did most of the work about 12 years ago. But I'm constantly fiddling, with tempo, note length, vel, etc. Especially when experimenting with different piano samples.

I'm a pretty good pianist, I guess. That helps, I think.

The fun part is making little changes that, in fact, would be very, very hard (if not impossible) to actually play. For example, some of the ornaments in G Major prelude (Bk 2), would be very hard to do.
 
just uploaded a new version of the "famous" Bach prelude in C.... partly in response to a comment that I agreed with, here, too much noise and kinda 60s vintage steinway d sound, which I'm actually trying to avoid. Switched from Cakewalk to Reaper for this version. Process: played in the material (not hard in this case). Did plenty of post live entry (playing live at the keyboard-recorded in midi) in Reaper, tempo, note length, note position, and velocity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOX8Jc2MlRE&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq21rE5SoYC33Nxltdam8TPG&index=2

The piano is HARD to record live, as most of us figure out pretty quick when we try it for the first time! That's ONE advantage of MIDI + PIANO SAMPLE.

While MIDI is tailor-made for recording sample piano, organ, harpsichord, even guitar to some extent (not so much for string instruments, reed instruments, voice, etc), the SAMPLING side is still a weak link. Some sampled organs are INDISTINGUISHABLE from live recorded organs, but the piano (and the guitar more so) has more nuances of sound, obviously.... because of the damper, the soft pedal, and all the associated nuances of sound that result from sympathetic vibrations and the infinite number of sounds you can get relative to key pressure, in combination with various damper and soft-pedal combinations. You can synth or model or sample all of those combinations, at least, not yet. But like film-making, you are using thousands of discreet photos to create the ILLUSION of movement: ditto for the sampled piano. So the end result of a good piano sample played live, or entirely via midi entry (very hard to make "realistic") is something that practically no one can distinguish from a live recording. This is especially true if you have access to Yamaha's high end midi code (I don't) and to a really convincing piano sample.

Most piano samples don't sound very much like a standard solo classical piano, or even, for that matter, like a solo jazz piano! "Orchestral Grand" Steinway D, to my ear, is about as close as you can get at the moment. American Grand is a somewhat distant 2nd, although it has many more sampled layers, and should therefore in theory sound "better."

The difference between American Grand and Orchestral Grand, in terms of TONE QUALITY, lies (I can only guess) in the mics used, their positioning relative to the piano, the acoustic space, and obviously the quality and tuning of the piano itself. OG has, I think, only four vel layers and 3 mic positions (that's 12 different "sounds" for each note of the piano). American Grand has many, many more, I think. But OG is NO FUN to play live. AG works well played live. YET--and this is the thing-- OG is much, much more realistic as a "scoring" piano.... that is... the recorded result--what you hear through your headphones or speakers (to my ears) is just a whole lot more like your average live piano recording (in any genre) than AM.

Of course, in certain very specific types of music, you can get almost ANY piano sample to sound great, which is why all of us (well me anyway) have loved, say, the online DEMOS of UVI's Bos, or Prod Grand's Yamaha, or Alicia's Keys, or Garritan, or 8deo, etc., etc., etc.. (I own most of them!!!) .......only to purchase them and discover that they just don't sound the way you thought they would!!!
 
are you serious? I own the neumann kh120a speakers, these recordings sound good to me, no harshness and a smooth high end, maybe just slightly boosted at 150Hz, but the playing is amazing, most people could never play this in a million years, you have a lot of talent, I enjoyed listening
 
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