MIDI Latency

B

Blakenstein

New member
I'm hoping someone can provide some assistance with a little nagging issue I'm having with MIDI Latency - here's my equipment list and situation:

Equipment list:
KAT KT3 E-drums
Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 - firewire into a PCIE Texas Instrument Firewire card
Behringer ADA8000 8 port expansion - light piped to the Saffire Pro 40
Presonus Studio One V2 2.0.4 DAW
Windows 7 - 64bit - custom built box: quad core chip, 16GB of DDR2, 120GB SSD main drive and 2TB of external hard drive storage
Steven Slate SSD4 drum sample software

I'm new to MIDI recording, I know it's been around for years and I'm behind the times but I'm schooled in the old analog recording world and I've always believed this was the best way to capture the true "essence" of the instrument but I digress. A few months ago I opted to get rid of my standard analog drum kit/mics and go with an electronic kit - I purchased the KAT KT3 kit. I recorded a few times using the stereo analog outputs directly into my Focusrite Pro 40 - seemed to work pretty well but of course lost the ability to separate the channels out - two track stereo, not much you can do in that respect. So I'm trying the MIDI connection - I have the KAT drum module MIDI In/Out directly to the Saffire Pro40 - External devices is setup correctly in Studio One for the KAT Module and Steven Slate virtual drum instrument software is working correctly but I'm getting a very slight (but annoying) latency with hearing the monitoring through the studio monitors. Is there any type of MIDI tweak that minimize or better eliminate this latency so I when I hit the drum pad I hear instant response and not a very slight delay?
I also purchased a M-Audio MIDISPORT 2x2 that I believe would solve the issue but after hours of trying to configure it with my KAT kit and Studio One with no results - I gave up for now. I can "see" (by indicator lights) I'm getting signal in but Studio One is not acknowledging it and no MIDI data is being "recorded".

Any assistance would be much appreciated.
 
Do you experience any such latency when you use the audio output of the e-kit?

My first hunch is that you simply have some output latency from your audio interface. Have you tried reducing the size of your ASIO buffer in your interface's ASIO control panel? I was having the same issue on my older machine, I lowered my buffer size and the latency was much more manageable after that (got it down to about 7ms in / 7 ms out).
 
Thank you for the reply Tadpui - Come to think of it, I do have a slight latency with my analog inputs/instruments when I have the track(s) monitoring enabled in Studio One, I usually disable it as I have the instruments connected to a mixing console first (with built in effects) and each channel connected out to the Inputs of the Saffire Pro 40. I'll investigate the ASIO buffer and see what I have it set to. Question - would the ASIO buffer be in the Windows driver for the Saffire?
 
There's always a bit of a delay with MIDI, and it's pretty annoying on drums. The usual causes - poor MIDI interface and slow computer don't seem to apply, so a bit of investigation is in order. First thing is to see if you can determine where in the chain the delay is. If you have anything else that puts out MIDI - maybe a keyboard, does that exhibit the same latency when you hit a key to trigger a drum sample? If there is no delay before the drum sounds on the keyboard, then the drum module may be to blame. If there is a delay on the keyboard too, then the interface into the computer could be the snag. Best to check for up to date drivers and see if that helps. On one of my older system, I had this with a Yamaha quite old kit and it was just laggy. Cubase - my sequencer, can easily shift back and forwards in time the tracks once they're recorded, but my recording solution was to set up a copy of the guide track, and shift that in time to compensate for the MIDI delay. Damn awkward, but essentially you hear the thing you are playing to a bit earlier than it really is, so the delay matches.
 
Blakenstein said:
Thank you for the reply Tadpui - Come to think of it, I do have a slight latency with my analog inputs/instruments when I have the track(s) monitoring enabled in Studio One, I usually disable it as I have the instruments connected to a mixing console first (with built in effects) and each channel connected out to the Inputs of the Saffire Pro 40. I'll investigate the ASIO buffer and see what I have it set to. Question - would the ASIO buffer be in the Windows driver for the Saffire?
Click to expand...

The ASIO settings would be part of the software that was installed along with the Saffire. From what I can gather for the Pro 40, the setting will be here:

focusrite.com said:
- Saffire Pro 40 and Liquid Saffire 56 users: Increase the ASIO buffer size in the Settings menu of the Saffire MixControl software. Also try increasing the Device Mode to a higher Safe Mode type.
Click to expand...

That particular quote is for troubleshooting connectivity problems, so you probably don't want to increase the size of the buffer. Smaller buffer = lower latency, but more strain on your CPU. Larger buffer = higher latency, but less strain on your CPU. Basically see how small of a buffer you can get away with before experiencing pops, clicks, or dropouts.
 
[QUOTE Cubase - my sequencer, can easily shift back and forwards in time the tracks once they're recorded, but my recording solution was to set up a copy of the guide track, and shift that in time to compensate for the MIDI delay. Damn awkward, but essentially you hear the thing you are playing to a bit earlier than it really is, so the delay matches.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that would really awkward! I can't even picture how I would do that in Studio One and what I would use as a "guide track".

Thank you for the suggestion though - I will play around with the ASIO settings as well as see if I can get my M-Audio MIDISPORT 2x2 working - I believe using that since it has it's own MIDI processor might greatly reduce the lag to a manageable level.
 
Just want to update everyone that viewed and/or replied to my post - I wanted to thank you for your suggestions. I dug in and it was do or die, I was going to get my KAT KT3 drum module to work with the M-Audio Midisport 2x2 if it takes all night. Luckily, it only took about an hour (helps when you read details in the manual) and my latency is still there but extremely minimal and I believe I can live with that. Thanks again!
 
I've got one of the M-Audio devices somewhere (and use the 8X8 as my main midi system).

I'm not sure messing with ASIO will do anything whatsoever - it's the audio system component - and as MIDI is data, I don't think anything you do with your ASIO settings will change the MIDI processing - with my 8x8, I have no MIDI delay I can detect. Drivers are the usual culprit of delays like this. I assume you've read this article
Solving MIDI Timing Problems
 
rob aylestone said:
I've got one of the M-Audio devices somewhere (and use the 8X8 as my main midi system).

I'm not sure messing with ASIO will do anything whatsoever - it's the audio system component - and as MIDI is data, I don't think anything you do with your ASIO settings will change the MIDI processing - with my 8x8, I have no MIDI delay I can detect. Drivers are the usual culprit of delays like this. I assume you've read this article
Solving MIDI Timing Problems
Click to expand...


I have not read that article, thank you for sending it.

MIDI Latency between the direct MIDI connection from my KAT drum module into the Saffire Pro 40 compared to the M-Audio 2x2 (to my ear) was very distinguishable and much improved. I'll download Evert van der Poll's MIDItest utility and do some tests.
 
I'm using an Alesis DM 10 Studio with Steven Slate in Reaper and have the same delay. I noticed that if I use the USB midi I cut the latency about in half...much easier to deal with. Does the KT3 have a usb midi out? If so, try that.
 
"I'm not sure messing with ASIO will do anything whatsoever - it's the audio system component - and as MIDI is data, I don't think anything you do with your ASIO settings will change the MIDI processing - with my 8x8, I have no MIDI delay I can detect. Drivers are the usual culprit of delays like this. I assume you've read this article" - Rob Aylestone

@ Rob Aylestone --- DO NOT EVER OPEN THIS FORUM AGAIN!

If wrong information spewed as fact is all you can offer GO SOMEWHERE ELSE ON THIS BOARD. I got a hearty laugh out of your 'midi timing is too coarse to do decimals' when it's plainly not, and here you are back again presenting yourself as an expert on midi latency. Of COURSE "anything you do with your ASIO settings" will change the Midi processing --- THAT"S ASIO's PRIMARY PURPOSE. It is classified as a driver too, just not for any specific piece of equipment.

RULE ONE: KNOW YOUR SUBJECT BEFORE YOU PRESENT YOURSELF AS AN EXPERT ON IT!
 
Another thing to try: If you have an SSD or a fast hard drive, set your project folder there. Recording to a 5400 RPM drive will yield higher latency than recording to a 7200 RPM and an SSD will give you great results.
AFA ASIO and midi: ASIO will not affect that data stream, true. But once your DAW converts the data to audio, that's another story completely. The SOS article is very informative, but is directed mainly toward Cubase users. Sure some of that can be translated over to Studio One.
Also, I'm certainly no midi expert, but I know a few things that can cause (and thereby ways to reduce) latency in computer systems in general.
 
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