Help me understand this please - MIDI controller messages

famous beagle

famous beagle

Well-known member
Ok, so I'm using Garritan JBB3 with Reaper, and I've recorded a nice little tenor sax line. I'd like to go in and draw some varying vibrato now. The JBB3 manual says this is done with MIDI Controller CC#17. So I open the MIDI editor in Reaper and pull up the menu list of controllers. This is where it gets fuzzy. There are a whole bunch of things in the list, starting with:

Velocity
Pitch
Program
Channel Pressure
Bank/Program Select
Text Events
Sysex

And then it starts in with numbered items:
00 Bank Select MSB
01 Mod Wheel MSB
02 Breath MSB

etc. The numbers continue on up to 119 with varied descriptions and many left blank, and then they start over again at 00 and climb back up to 31 with other various things.

Nowhere in the list did I see "vibrato" or CC#17. I tried using the number 17 parameter (both of them), which was labeled "GP Slider 2," but that resulted in no change.

So ... my question is how do I find out which parameter in this list coincides with CC#17?

Thanks to anyone who can help. And if you can shed some light in general on this parameter list, I'd be appreciative! :)
 
don't use reaper,but maybe use a GM instrument definition (ala cakewalk) grab 17,make sure its output to the right channel ... (then switch back after drawing the CC`s and see what its labeled as for future reference )
 
famous beagle said:
Ok, so I'm using Garritan JBB3 with Reaper, and I've recorded a nice little tenor sax line. I'd like to go in and draw some varying vibrato now. The JBB3 manual says this is done with MIDI Controller CC#17. So I open the MIDI editor in Reaper and pull up the menu list of controllers. This is where it gets fuzzy. There are a whole bunch of things in the list, starting with:

Velocity
Pitch
Program
Channel Pressure
Bank/Program Select
Text Events
Sysex

And then it starts in with numbered items:
00 Bank Select MSB
01 Mod Wheel MSB
02 Breath MSB

etc. The numbers continue on up to 119 with varied descriptions and many left blank, and then they start over again at 00 and climb back up to 31 with other various things.

Nowhere in the list did I see "vibrato" or CC#17. I tried using the number 17 parameter (both of them), which was labeled "GP Slider 2," but that resulted in no change.

So ... my question is how do I find out which parameter in this list coincides with CC#17?

Thanks to anyone who can help. And if you can shed some light in general on this parameter list, I'd be appreciative! :)
Click to expand...

I think you have done the right thing:

1 Record some midi
2 Open up the midi editor
3 Towards the bottom left, click on the down arrow to open up a whole list of midi commands
4 Find 17 GP Slider 2
5 Left click and drag under the piano roll editor to insert a bunch of control changes
6 Hit and play, and see if it has an effect.

The JBB3 should recognise that CC17 drives the vibrato

However, if it doesn't work, try using the mod wheel (if you have one) as you record, or insert mod wheel commands after the event. Mod wheel is CC33.
 
Not all VSTis support vibrato, make sure it does. Could be the instrument you are using is more velocity based than true vibrato.
 
Thanks for the replies y'all.

DM60: It definitely supports vibrato, as it specifically states in the manual that it's controlled with CC#17.

gecko: In this instrument, the mod wheel controls the volume, which I did use as I was recording.

I think the issue is that I'm using MIDI CH 5 for the sax sound, but the CC#17 message was drawn in with MIDI CH 1. I can't find how to change this (the MIDI channel of the CC message). I've asked the folks on the Reaper forum, so they should be able to tell me.
 
The engine might support, but that particular instrument might not. Have you tried it live with a pitch-bend wheel (usually pushing the pitch bend wheel)? I say this as I have in the past created instruments and often, pitch bend and vibrato are options per instrument. The engine I was using supports it, but depending if I invoke it as a part of the instrument creation is instrument dependent. Just trying to keep you from chasing something that might not be. You could also try another VSTi as a sanity check.

Also, just for experimentation, try a pitch bend in Reaper to see if that is working. Pitch bend is easier to detect than vibrato. Depending on the instrument, it can be very subtle.
 
Not sure, but the people on the Reaper forum have helped me out when I've had questions.
 
Ok, I figured it out. Got the CC#17 messages drawn on the right CH, and it still wasn't working. Then I looked back at the JBB3 manual, and it said that vibrato was controlled with two parameters: Aftertouch (for intensity) and CC#17 (for speed). Once I learned that aftertouch also went by the name of "Control Pressure," I drew those events in, and whaddaya know? The vibrato appeared loud and clear. :)
 
famous beagle said:
Ok, I figured it out. Got the CC#17 messages drawn on the right CH, and it still wasn't working. Then I looked back at the JBB3 manual, and it said that vibrato was controlled with two parameters: Aftertouch (for intensity) and CC#17 (for speed). Once I learned that aftertouch also went by the name of "Control Pressure," I drew those events in, and whaddaya know? The vibrato appeared loud and clear. :)
Click to expand...

I'm pleased you got it sorted!

famous beagle said:
I think the issue is that I'm using MIDI CH 5 for the sax sound, but the CC#17 message was drawn in with MIDI CH 1. I can't find how to change this (the MIDI channel of the CC message). I've asked the folks on the Reaper forum, so they should be able to tell me.
Click to expand...

As it happens, when you open the midi editor window, at the bottom right is a channel selector. It defaults to "all channels", but you can click the down arrow and select whichever channel you want.

Actually . . . I don't know if it defaults to all channels. It may default to whatever channels you select as an input. I didn't try that.
 
gecko zzed said:
I'm pleased you got it sorted!



As it happens, when you open the midi editor window, at the bottom right is a channel selector. It defaults to "all channels", but you can click the down arrow and select whichever channel you want.

Actually . . . I don't know if it defaults to all channels. It may default to whatever channels you select as an input. I didn't try that.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah I saw that, but the problem was I had already drawn in the CC events (unknowingly) on CH 1, and I was trying to find a way to change them to CH 5. I eventually realized what you were talking about, deleted the events on CH 1, switched to CH 5 like you said, and drew them in there.

On the Reaper forum, he explained that, in order to change the CH of events already there, you just select them all, right click on an empty space, and select "event properties." There you can change the MIDI channel, among other things.
 
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