Can this issue be caused by something in MIDI?

I've been a musician for over 40 years and have also had a home studio for about as long. I've gone through the times of tape hiss and reel to reel machines and then moved into the digital world. That's a little bit of background on me. I've opened up the world of VSTs and have been using MIDI with my keyboard controller to play VSTi sound modules that I've purchased.

I have two main sound module programs that give me orchestra sounds and piano/synth sounds out the wazoo. I have two main computers. One for playing the sounds and one for the recording. These computers are connected via the SP/DIF connection. The computer playing the sounds is connected to my keyboard with MIDI ins and outs. I have drivers to play the sounds in CuBase and each sound program also has its own program, so I can play them outside of the DAW. I also have the ASIO drivers, which I use at times.

I have a mixer and run everything through it to the individual recording tracks and everything works great...except for one thing. When I play something real time on the keyboard, using the VST sounds, I get an anomaly of one note playing much louder than the rest. This situation is very random and only seems to happen when I play a lot of notes over a short period of time. That one note will play at full volume, then everything goes back to the way it should. Sometimes that one note can be two, and in extreme cases, I experience a latency issue for a couple of notes. But, once this little glitch has passed, everything is fine, once again.

I don't use MIDI for its normal use, although I could. I just connected my keyboard to the hardware so it could play the sound modules. My keyboard is an Ensoniq SQ1 Plus. It's kind of old, but works great. I have the MIDI settings to look for all 16 MIDI programs and the keyboard is set to OMNI. I'm not sure of some of the other settings, but can check on them, if someone needs to know. I'm not a MIDI expert by any means. I'm into it just enough that it works.

I've done some research on this issue. I've canceled out any hardware that I have by disconnecting each thing in turn, to see if I still have the problem. I've also canceled out any drivers, by the same process. I disconnected the SP/DIF to the recording computer, so all I had was the one producing the sounds. And like I said, because the sound programs have their own method of running themselves, I could cancel out CuBase and it's drivers. I ran each sound program separately, to test for the problem that way and in each and every test I've done, this one loud note issue is always there.

The only things I can't cancel out are the computer which has the VST programs installed, and the Ensoniq keyboard and MIDI settings. To me, the situation sounds like a RAM thing, as it's always random in how or when it happens. If it turns out to be RAM, I can deal with that, but I don't want to go out buying things if it isn't going to fix anything. That's why I'm here. I need help with the MIDI settings. I've done a little research, but I know just enough to get the thing to play.

And in any situation, it seems to play just fine. I have lush sounds, zero latency issues, and with the click of a mouse, I'm playing a string section or brass, a nice grand piano or a combination of them all. But, if there are fine tuning settings that I need to have set, it's very likely that I haven't set them. I don't even know if MIDI can cause such a thing to happen. It seems like a small overload of signal at any given time. Then, once it passes, it's fine for another random period of time, before it happens again. Can this happen in MIDI?

Needless to say, it's gotten under my skin. I can't record anything because of this. Sure, I can go back and fix a note here and there, but talk about an inspiration killer! I'll be playing along, then BOOM, that one note will play at full volume, killing the mood, and because I'm wearing headphones it can come close to giving me a heart attack.

So, anybody got some ideas of where I can look for the cause of this in a MIDI environment? I hope I've explained it well enough and I can give more info, if necessary. Can a MIDI setting even cause this kind of thing?
 
Max out virtual memory, turn off screensavers and antivirus apps if you have them.

I run Dimension Pro and EZ Keys on an ancient P4 and I get glitches and dropouts too, sometimes more than others.

More RAM is always good.
 
I really appreciate your response, but if I can believe the computer, I have a lot of virtual memory. This particular computer is not on any network, has no screen saver nor does it have an antivirus program running. I've tried to tweak both computers to be just recording computers, shutting off anything that might suck system resources.
 
Virtual memory is not memory. Virtual memory is storage space on the hard drive that is indexed for quicker access, it is used as a cache area. While quicker than typical storage, it is not idea and really only for used for wait states etc. Depending on the OS, you may need more real RAM. If you have 32bit XP, it has a 3 Gig limit. So don't bother with more than that.

After reading your setup (several times), seems rather confusing. Are you daisy chaining the MIDI to pick up the modules? You probably know more about MIDI that I do, but if you are getting data drops, notes, notes on, notes off, velocity are the primary data, and there is a data drop (say velocity), then the note will play at default (usually full on) thus causing a louder note. If you send it a note on and then release and that data gets dropped, then a note will get stuck until it receives a note off signal for that note.

If it happens to a particular module, you may try to change the order of the chain. MIDI is pretty light, coming from the 80's, it has extremely low requirements. I worked on MIDI with a computer that had 650kb (286), so I doubt it is RAM. Can you see the recorded MIDI and look at the velocity on the offending note? Could it be Cubase not interpreting the incoming MIDI data correctly, have you tried another DAW? It also could be the Keyboard is just getting old and it may not be sending the data correctly. Not likely, but it could happen.
 
When I play something real time on the keyboard, using the VST sounds, I get an anomaly of one note playing much louder than the rest. This situation is very random and only seems to happen when I play a lot of notes over a short period of time. That one note will play at full volume, then everything goes back to the way it should. Sometimes that one note can be two, and in extreme cases, I experience a latency issue for a couple of notes. But, once this little glitch has passed, everything is fine, once again.

I get exactly the same with my 20 yr old Yamaha PSR-520 keyboard and my problem in the rubber buffers under the keys, that control the touch sensitivity, are expiring. They can play fine for a while and then you get full velocity hits on keys, and then not, and then..... I've been looking for replacements, or another cheap one the same for spares, as I like the keyboard but haven't found any as yet. I'll probably just invest in a new one. I don't use it that much to warrant an expensive one, just a cheap controller will do.

Mine is mostly affected around the middle 24 keys that have had the most use over the years.

Can't be 100% but I would imagine you're suffering from a similar thing with yours.
 
I know what virtual memory is. I have as much as Windows is allowing and the drive isn't very full, so it's pretty open. I am using 32 bit XP, and I'm aware of the 3 gig limit. I have 4 gigs, but such is life. I'd have to move up to Windows 7, to get more use out of my RAM. I think that is the first OS for that.

I'm not daisy chaining. It's strictly MIDI in to the sound module from the keyboard and then MIDI out from the module back to the keyboard. No other devices involved. And it's not a CuBase thing, because I am able to reproduce this anomaly with the individual VST software's programs. I have two and both of them have the ability to be played without any soft drivers. They do require the hardware of a sound module, though, so a TASCAM unit is involved. I know it's not in the hardware of the sound module, though, because I have two. I've been able to test this and reproduce the problem in both VSTi sound softwares, with their own program. And testing with both sound modules, TASCAM US-1641 and TASCAM US-144MKII.

I might not be using the correct terminology for the different devices I have. The Keyboard is an Ensoniq SQ-1 Plus. It's sending and receiving MIDI data from a TASCAM US-1641 sound module. I also have a backup TASCAM US-144MKII. I move the MIDI ins and outs from the 1641 to the 144 for the test, and that cancels out the 1641 as the culprit. But, because the VSTi programs have their own internal soft drivers, it's not necessary to use the driver in CuBase. It does use the TASCAM hardware, though. And in my testing, I tried several different drivers within CuBase, none of which seemed to make any difference. I always have the latest drivers installed, but the problem is still there. I hope that makes sense.

I know how MIDI works. It does seem like what you are describing with a velocity thing. The note plays full on, as if I've really hammered that key. Usually, it receives it's note off data and the problem goes away until the next time, but there are rare times when I experience latency in small sections. Sometimes that latency is short lived, but in rare times, it can seem like it just got confused for a couple of seconds and everything I try to play has bad latency, sometimes also experiencing notes holding longer than they should, etc. like they didn't get their note off data. It's like something glitched causing a data overload of some kind. I stop playing for a couple of seconds, whatever is happening goes away or catches up, and I'm back in business again until, the next time.

Like I said in my initial post, this happens when I play a lot of notes in a short period of time like that data received is too much somewhere in the MIDI path, causing a very short overload, resulting in the full on note. In those rare times when I experience latency, I'd guess that is also an overload of data for some reason, just more so than the more common velocity issue with the single note. I'm not sure it's a MIDI issue, but I've tried to cancel everything else out. The computer is an AMD quad 4 and it's only about a year old. In fact, everything in the computer is about a year old. I had two older computers (P4), but the issue was there on those computers, too. That's one reason I upgraded to the newer, faster computer. I thought maybe the slower computers were at fault.

I don't record MIDI data. I just use the MIDI connection to play the VSTi sounds. I could set something up to look at the MIDI data that records during these times, if it will help. I just don't use my system for that. Like I said in my first post, I have two main VSTi programs that produce the sounds. I can open each independently of anything else, and still get the velocity (full on) issue. I can't cancel out anything in the computer the software is installed on, though. I also can't cancel out anything in the MIDI path, and that includes the keyboard. I guess it could be in the keyboard. It was not a cheap keyboard, but it isn't new. But, like you said, MIDI has been around a while and so I wouldn't suspect the keyboard.

Unless something in the keyboard (some kind of chip or electronic component) is going out, the keyboard itself has never been bumped around. It's doubtful a circuit board has been damaged from rough use. I only have one keyboard with MIDI capability, though. I might be able to borrow one, to see if I can cancel the keyboard out. I would like to get this issue fixed because I want to get out and play some live gigs. I need that extra money. You just can't go out and play with a random note deciding to play full volume in the middle of a nice quiet passage. It just sucks.

Thanks for any help. I have no problem explaining any of this again. I know it can seem complicated, but I'm pretty sure I've canceled out everything in my rack except the computer, the keyboard and the MIDI path. I could be mistaken in this, though. That's one reason I've come here. I need another brain to think this through to see if I've missed something.

Thanks for any help you all can come up with. I'm going to investigate borrowing another MIDI keyboard to see if that is the problem. I'd really hate for that to be the case, because that damn thing was expensive and I don't have a lot of cash to replace it, nor do I want to. It's internal sounds are old, but mixed with the new sounds in the VSTi software programs, it produces some really lush and full sounds.
 
I think Teddy's got you covered. Try using a different controller and see if you still get the problem. Borrow, test drive, something. Midi is a very complex animal, but the fact that the problem has existed over multiple computers kind of rules out the computers. Same with all the other kit. Try the keyboard and let's see what happens.
 
Do record it - then you can inspect the data and look at the MIDI note velocities, in many of the editors, you will spot rogue loud notes, and then try to make sense - are these actually being sent by the keyboard - swapping it will show where the fault lies - I've never come across this kind of thing where the fault was a sporadic change in velocity inside the computer, but seen plenty of random MIDI data coming in from dodgy keys, expiring membrane switches and bouncing program change rubbers.

Inspect the MIDI data rather than live, because you then have a record you can look at and see what is going on - and of course you can replay the incoming data to see if the same thing happens every time!
 
MIDI feedback can cause all kinds of weirdness. In the keyboard itself, turn off any MIDI Thru or Echo function. Usually not a bad idea to turn off Local Control on the keyboard also. Won't affect playback, but it can get weird while playing in real time.
 
I'm getting to borrow a midi keyboard, so I will be able to see if that's the problem. I never thought about the mechanical part of the keyboard being the cause. That may very well be it. There have been times when I've pounded those keys and I bet there are some parts that are worn. The keyboard I'm borrowing has been treated quite gingerly, so it will be a good test. I think it will be the weekend or later before I can get this test going, though. I'll let you all know how it comes out, but I agree, thinking Teddy probably has the answer.
 
Thanks for the clarification. I know just enough to get things done, but when I have to explain a problem, I can have the incorrect terms. And I think I did know what a sound module was, but being old, it slipped my mind. Interface does fit the TASCAM units better, as they are just the hardware that allows me to play the VSTi software. I have a lot of cash invested in my system. I don't need no stinking glitches messing with it. If the keyboard isn't the solution, I'll see about recording some of the MIDI data.
 
Thanks for the clarification. I know just enough to get things done, but when I have to explain a problem, I can have the incorrect terms. And I think I did know what a sound module was, but being old, it slipped my mind. Interface does fit the TASCAM units better, as they are just the hardware that allows me to play the VSTi software. I have a lot of cash invested in my system. I don't need no stinking glitches messing with it. If the keyboard isn't the solution, I'll see about recording some of the MIDI data.

I figured you knew what a sound module was, no one uses that term except for "old schoolers".:D

You are using the interface as if it were a sound module. I am sure you are thinking that way. Just thought I would clarify so in the future it will be easier to help in required.
 
My money is still on the old keyboard being at fault. I may be wrong but going on past/current experience it is highly likely that is the case.

Here's an example of what happens with my keyboard and you can hear in the MP3 what you see in the midi editor. There are keys that are hitting full velocity even though they're being lightly touch like the others. A classic example of a knackered keyboard.

[MP3]http://themrclean.co.uk/mp3/AddKeys.mp3[/MP3]

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I've never gotten around to attempting to fix my keyboard (although i have occasionally looked for spare parts) but I think if I moved the 1st and 5th octaves to the 2nd and 3rd, or maybe move a few of the rubber buffer/dampeners around if possible, I could probably get better use from it for a while longer without having to purchase a new one. I don't use it much. I've just never looked inside enough to see what can be done.

:thumbs up:
 
Out of interest, I just took mine to bits and had a look to see if I could change the key/rubbers to fix the issue and I could, it did, and now I can't replicate that issue that I posted above, on any Octave on the keyboard. It's all working as it was when I first inherited it back in 1997. There was an unimaginable amount of crap in there, dust and god knows what.

The strips for Octaves 2 and 3 didn't look as bad as I imagined them to be.

Image00001.jpg

I replaced them with the strips from 1 and 5 anyway, just to be on the safe side, as I've never had any bum notes from those at all and they looked like new. (Down to the lesser use over the years I thought)

Image00003.jpg

The amount of crap in there can't of helped much either. A paint brush and hoover sorted that out a treat.

Image00002.jpg

Then I had to remember where everything went. I undid some screws that I didn't really need to and the whole keyboard fell to bits but it gave me the opportunity to give everything a really good clean up.

Image00004.jpg

And then it was done.

20141107_150948.jpg

This information may or may not help you and I apologise for hi-jacking the thread. Hopefully it'll help someone along the way. If it turns out that it is your keyboard, it might be worth getting in there and having a look and see if it can be fixed.

:thumbs up:
 
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Using old rubbers? Actually I think you make the point for the issue. Keyboards have mechanical parts and those parts become worn or aged (rubber does deteriorate) or junk accumulates.

OP, maybe it is time for some keyboard cleaning.
 
Man, I've been gone for a few days, and I come back to almost a step by step class on what I need to do. This is great. I do agree that my situation is probably the rubber sensors under the keys. I've been doing some reading on how all of that works and thinking of where this full note on problem has been happening, I'd say it's usually in an area of the keyboard that I play a lot. What I mean by this is, those note get the most use, so they are the most likely to be the first to be damaged from over use or hard use.

Before I had MIDI, I used the internal sounds of the keyboard. I've also altered several of the sounds to sound more like the instrument they are suppose to be, or created another sound using the base settings of a sound I never really used. I've had the keyboard for years and I've sometimes hit the keys with a lot of force. I usually jam with a drummer friend and while we use headphones to play, he's not sitting very far from me and I tend to hit my keys harder, thinking it will help. But, I've never abused the keys.

And I've since purchased a headphone amp that allows me to adjust the individual volumes of each player and for each player. That allows me to give him what he wants to hear and what I want to hear. But, for a time, I did have problems hearing myself and of course, he never had any issues of hearing himself. But, enough about that.

I've found a couple of places where I can get the necessary parts for my keyboard, so I'm just going to open the sucker up and see what I have. And from reading, I've found that the keyboard has a series of strips that control this and it comes in 12 note sections. Theoretically, I could just switch those worn strips with a higher range on the keyboard. I know that won't fix things, but it would give me an idea of if this is truly my problem. Then, I can purchase the necessary strips and replace them all. I'm sure some cleaning might be all that's necessary in some cases, too. Those little contacts on the rubber strips and the contacts on the circuit board beneath them need to have a clean contact. They are very similar to what's under the keys of many calculators.

I was able to borrow a keyboard with MIDI ins and outs, but found it doesn't have velocity sensitive keys. I could do this with the MIDI system I guess, but it wouldn't be a good test to see if my keyboard was the cause. The borrowed keyboard only cost $100 and mine was much more than that, new.

I really like that my Ensoniq case is metal. It stands up to any rough treatment quite well. That does add to the weight of it, but in this case, heavy is a good thing.

Thanks for everybody's help. I'll reply again, once I've opened it up and switched some strips. I plan on doing that very soon. I'm suffering from non-playing jones.
 
It's definitely worth a look inside to see. As I say, the strips in mine were in pretty good condition but for the dirt, dust and grime. I can't say for sure as I moved them but I wouldn't of been surprised if it all worked fine after a good cleaning alone. I just wanted to make sure.

I've used my keyboard quite a but since "fixing" it and it's a dream to play again compare to the bungling, random full note, pain in the arse I'd come to learn to work around.


Hope you can get yours sorted too. :thumbs up:
 
Well, I've found out some bad news. It seems the SQ1 doesn't have the rubber bubble things with the carbon contacts. I've taken my keyboard apart and there is nothing even close. The SQ2 does have this kind of setup, but not the SQ1. From what I can tell, there is a spring that makes contact with what is called a contact bar that's under the key. There are two contact bars. These bars just look like wire sized contacts of some sort. When the key is at rest it makes contact with one of these bars. When you play a note, it makes contact with the other one.

I was so sure this was my problem and it seems like it isn't. Well, I can't say it isn't still my problem, but I don't know how the velocity system works on this keyboard. Below are some pics (not the greatest camera) of what I think my system involves. It's a spring that is attached to the bottom of each key. This spring is in-between these two contact bars. I'm not sure how the velocity system works in this case, though, or even if this is part of it.

There is a small resister at one end of each of these springs. I've attached a couple pictures of the resisters and where they are. I've also attached a couple pictures of the spring that's attached to the bottom of each note showing how it runs through those two contact bars and then the resister is attached at the other end. Does any of this make sense to anybody?

I've had this section of the keyboard disassembled a couple of times, looking for the rubber strips. Like I said, I've found that the SQ2 has the strips, but the SQ1 does not. The web site that has replacement parts for this keyboard has SQ2 parts in the same area, so I thought the strips were for the SQ1, only to find out they are for the SQ2.

At the top of the first two pics, you will see the top of the springs that take the keys back to the home position after being played. The third pic has a close up of those springs.

So, is the velocity somehow controlled by this spring and the two contact bars it makes contact with? Do I need to somehow scrape any carbon residue off of this spring or from the contact bars? There was some dirt and debris around these springs, but I don't know if there was enough to cause a problem.

I can get the full section with springs, circuit board, resisters, etc. from the web site I've found. It has everything, except the keys and the springs at the back of them for about $45. The only problem is the part is used. I might be purchasing the same problem or even worse. But, it's only $45. It wouldn't be bad to have some extra parts, I guess, but I'm thinking of looking for another keyboard controller. I wish I had money to spend on it.

Picture 001.jpePicture 003.jpePicture 004.jpePicture 005.jpePicture 006.jpe
 
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