Whats is more important: Mic or Placement?

Neil Ogilvie

Still Learning.......
What would make more difference:

A) Using a top end SD condensor and just have a basic idea of mic placement, or a cheap behringer B5 and a really good idea of placement? In applications such as OH's and Acoustic Guitar.

B) SM57/e609 on a guitar cab but knowing exactly where to point it or a a selection of expensive mics in poor placement?

In other words, knowledge and poorer mics, or expensive mics and no knowledge. I feel that mic placement is often an overlooked skill on this board - it can often mean for a newb they do not need to buy a $500 mic but need to learn how to use what they already have to its maximum potential.
 
I've been getting some pretty good results from some pretty crappy mics. It takes alot of trial and error to find the right spot.
 
I would go with mic placement as well as room treatment. Another one that I think gets overlooked alot is the quality of the sound source. It doesn't matter where you put the mic or what mic it is if the sound sucks ass to begin with. That is another thing to think about.
 
My lil experience........

Speaking from what experience I have to offer, I would say the mic is just as important. Yes, you can get a decent sound from a crap mic, but you will be amazed at what a better mic can offer.

I started with an Radio Shack mic and worked up to an AUdio Tech Blue, Shure, AKG Condensor, Marshall Condesor now Im getting A Rode, but ever mic advancement I make, I end up feeling like a fool thinking the previous one was the "FOR SURE THING". I wouldnt say you have to buy a $500 mic to get the best sound, but if you have the money, why not. Cheaper mics, I feel, just cut out the hard to tweak frequencies as well as wanted frequencies.

What do you currently have as far as a mic, what do you record to/with? What kinda music do you record? Just curious.............


The better quality mic you have, to an extent, the better quality your recording will be, just my opinion.........pm
 
Wireneck said:
Another one that I think gets overlooked alot is the quality of the sound source. It doesn't matter where you put the mic or what mic it is if the sound sucks ass to begin with. That is another thing to think about.

That is so true. The source will have the single biggest effect on the fidelity of the recording because certain things just record well while others don't. A good-sounding source can make a cheap mic sound lush and expensive; while a bad one will only exploit it's weaknesses.

The next most important thing is properly matching the mic to the source. I suppose this would also fall under the category of "knowlege."

Then positioning . . . then quality of mic.
 
Using a radio shck mic I found the 'sweet' spot' for placement and got decent quality. damn it really good quality. But you wanna have a good mic for versatility...I move a lot during recording so this is why I needed to upgrade. BUT MIC PLACEMENT IS VERY IMPORTANT!!
IMO
 
mic placement is everything. That's how come Harvey can kick so much ass with mics most on the bulletin boards scoff at. He knows where to put 'em and when.

Chris
 
CMEZ said:
mic placement is everything. That's how come Harvey can kick so much ass with mics most on the bulletin boards scoff at. He knows where to put 'em and when.

Hmmm. I suppose having these doesn't hurt, either:

MCI 556-D Console
Great River Electronics MP-2NV "Neve" Stereo Mic Preamp
Great River Electronics MP-2 Stereo Mic Preamp
Millenia Media SST-1 "Origin" Mic Preamp/EQ/Compressor
3 FMR Audio RNP 8380 Stereo Mic Preamp
GT Vipre Mic Preamp


RCA 44BX Bi-directional ("Figure 8") Ribbon
RCA 77DX Multi-pattern Ribbon
Coles 4038 Bi-directional ("Figure 8") Ribbon
2 AEA R84 Bi-directional ("Figure 8") Ribbons
5 Sennheiser MD 421 Cardioid Dynamics
10 Sennheiser MD e604/504D Drum Mount Cardioids
EV RE-20 Cardioid Dynamic
2 EV CS-15P "Small Cap" Cardioid Condensors
2 Akai CM-15 Tube "Small Cap" Cardioid Condensors
2 RTT MC-012 "Small Cap" Matched Condensors w/Cardioid, Omni, and Hypercardioid capsules
RTT Lomo M1 "Very Large Cap" Cardioid Condensor
T.H.E. KA-04/ KR-2C cardioid capsule
2 T.H.E KP-6M Matched Omni Reference Condensors
2 Audix TR-40 Matched Omni Reference Condensors
2 Fairchild F-22 "Large Cap" Cardioid Condensors (w/Dan Kennedy Class A mods)
Sony C-38B "Large Cap" Cardioid Condensor
Sony ECM-377P "Large Cap" Cardioid Condensor
Beyer M-260DX Ribbon (w/Stephen Sank 77DX mod)
2 Sony ECM-270 "Small Cap" Cardioid Condensors
Sony ECM-22 "Small Cap" Cardioid Condensor
 
Yeah, but the last bluegrass album I did, I used nothing but MXL 603's on all the instruments (except the upright bass, where I used a Behringer ECM8000) and all the vocals were thru an MXL V77. I used the Soundtrac Topaz stock on-board preamps, and the only compressors used was a few RNCs. Any eq used was either from the board or a dbx Model 242. The reverb was a Lexicon Alex.

On a blues session, when my beloved RCA 77DX didn't cut it, the V77 again worked very well for this vocal, going straight into the board. For the sax, I used the Shure SM7, since it was still up from a previous vocal session for another group.

Yes, my son Alex is now using the AEA R84 ribbons as overheads, but I'll usually reach for the Oktava MC012's, the MXL 603's or the ECM8000's for overheads on my sessions.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Yes, my son Alex is now using the AEA R84 ribbons as overheads, but I'll usually reach for the Oktava MC012's, the MXL 603's or the ECM8000's for overheads on my sessions.

I can't believe you're not using your TR-40's more often. I'm totally digging mine.
 
I forgot the TR-40's. I use them interchangably with the ECM8000's. I usually favor the ECM's because they're hotter output than the Audix, and quieter. I know that sounds weird, but maybe I just got very lucky with the pair I own. I bought them from 8th Street Music.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
I forgot the TR-40's. I use them interchangably with the ECM8000's. I usually favor the ECM's because they're hotter output than the Audix, and quieter. I know that sounds weird, but maybe I just got very lucky with the pair I own. I bought them from 8th Street Music.
Do your ECM8000's have transformers in them? The reason why I'm asking is because it's my understanding the first ECM8000's had transformers and the newer ones don't.
 
I don't think the transformers are particularly related to the ECM's inherent noise issues..............if you (DJL) have been following the thread where you are picking up this information, you will have noticed I have what appear to be ECM's with a slightly revised transformerless PCB and I have said on a number of occasions that short of using very high gain settings on my Soundcraft, this pair of mics are surprisingly quiet.

:cool:
 
Harvey, the V77 is a wonderful mic isn't it?
How does it compare to the TLM103?

I compared it to the M149 and although it sounds a tad brighter, it really comes close.

And how is the ECM on upright? Will it do the job in a jazz session, all players in one room?

Thanks!
 
Harvey Gerst said:
I usually favor the ECM's because they're hotter output than the Audix, and quieter. I know that sounds weird, but maybe I just got very lucky with the pair I own. I bought them from 8th Street Music.

No kidding. Either that or you got unlucky with the TR-40's. :D Either way, it worked out for you, though.
 
Harvey-
Great post about recording bluegrass. Good to see it can be done well affordably!!! By the way, your posts that stay in the faq section have been enlightening and inspirational. Thanks!

I record and play mainly bluegrass. If I could pick your brain for a moment, I would love to hear some of your thoughts on the following questions.

1. For me, the most difficult instrument to record for a bluegrass group is the guitar. I can get a great guitar sound with mk-012s, but I can never quite get it to sit in the mix like I want it. What I am looking for is the sound that Tony Rice and others have while they are playing rhythm. It is like, is the guitar there, or not? Remove it, and you definitely miss it, but while it is there, it does not really stand out all that much, except for obligatory G runs. Am I making sense? It seems that my guitars always stand out too much. It may be more of an EQ issue, I suppose. Any suggestions you can give would really be appreciated!


2. How far away are you micing bass with the ECM?

3. You mentioned reverb and compression. What is your approach for adding reverb and compression with a bluegrass setup?

4. Are you micing the instruments in stereo or mono?

Your input on this list has really improved the quality of my recordings! Thanks!

Woodshedder
 
ausrock said:
I don't think the transformers are particularly related to the ECM's inherent noise issues..............if you (DJL) have been following the thread where you are picking up this information, you will have noticed I have what appear to be ECM's with a slightly revised transformerless PCB and I have said on a number of occasions that short of using very high gain settings on my Soundcraft, this pair of mics are surprisingly quiet.

:cool:
Thanks, but I was asking Harvey about his Behringer ECM8000's... not your "what appear to be ECM's" mics.
 
woodshedder said:
Harvey-
Great post about recording bluegrass. Good to see it can be done well affordably!!! By the way, your posts that stay in the faq section have been enlightening and inspirational. Thanks!

I record and play mainly bluegrass. If I could pick your brain for a moment, I would love to hear some of your thoughts on the following questions.

1. For me, the most difficult instrument to record for a bluegrass group is the guitar. I can get a great guitar sound with mk-012s, but I can never quite get it to sit in the mix like I want it. What I am looking for is the sound that Tony Rice and others have while they are playing rhythm. It is like, is the guitar there, or not? Remove it, and you definitely miss it, but while it is there, it does not really stand out all that much, except for obligatory G runs. Am I making sense? It seems that my guitars always stand out too much. It may be more of an EQ issue, I suppose. Any suggestions you can give would really be appreciated!


2. How far away are you micing bass with the ECM?

3. You mentioned reverb and compression. What is your approach for adding reverb and compression with a bluegrass setup?

4. Are you micing the instruments in stereo or mono?

Your input on this list has really improved the quality of my recordings! Thanks!

Woodshedder
1. Bluegrass guitar is tricky, since it depends on the instrument and player so much. I used a 603 coming in very low, just below the bottom bout, pointed up towards the bridge, about 3 to 6" out. Lots of definition without boom.

2. The bass thing turned out to be a pleasant accident. The bass player was the only person who had been in a studio before and he was doing most of the band leading, so I put up the ECM8000 primarily as a talkback mic and to capture scratch vocals. I placed it pretty close to him, just pointed straight up at the ceiling, about even with the neck/body joint and in pretty close (like 6" out from the finger board). When I heard the bass tone, I forgot about talkback and just said "don't sing!!". It picked up a little bleed, but not as much as I thought it would.

3. If the vocals got out of hand, I'd add a touch of compression to even things out, but very little was used. The mandolin player was incredibly loud for his solos and I had some compression on him as well. I added a little bit of reverb on the vocals to give the singer a little bit of space, and a lot to the fiddle where I used the reverb to cover some of his playing.

4. Everything was close miked and in mono. Since I knew they'd wanna redo some of the parts, I depended on mic placement to adjust the tone, and left all eq bypassed, so I could fix and punch in parts easily later.

Where they sat in the final mix was the big problem and I think I did about 15 full mixes on each song till they were "happy" (or they just gave up). I wound up putting the guitar and bass in the center, the banjo hard left, the mandolin hard right, dobro 1/2 right, and fiddle 1/2 left. Main vocals were centered.

Overall, I was very surprised at just how much seperation I was able to achieve with 6 musicians playing loud in a 10' x 11' room, with a 7' ceiling.
 
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