What do I need?

noisedude

noisedude

New member
I've finally got what you would call a full setup here in my house. It's spread over two rooms which makes me feel special. I think mics my be my weak point, which is why I'm putting this here. Make me a wish list ... something to aspire to. I keep almost buying mics then getting other stuff instead that comes up on special offers or ebay.

Here's my gear:
- Very good PC (which still isn't working!)
- Delta 44
- Soundcraft M12
- Behringer MIC2200 (used for DI purposes mostly)
- Yamaha MG10/2 (in my monitoring chain)
- A pile of Behringer DI100s from my live rig

Mics:
- SE Electronics SE2200 (budget LDC, seems decent but I'm too stoopid do describe sound)
- Shure 545 (USA-made, absolutely awesome on guitars!)
- Beyer Soundstar MkII
- Sennheiser E835 plus five E845s from my live stuff

Other stuff:
- Alesis M1A monitors
- Sennheiser HD280 phones
- Sennheiser HD202 phones

Instruments:
- Yamaha Clavinova
- Burns Marquee
- Westone Prestige 150
- Crafter acoustic
- Fender Mexican P-Bass
- My shite voice
- Vox AD15 Valvetronix
- Fender Roc Pro 1000 (does the two sounds that the Vox does least well)


So there you have it. I'm not recording drums at home at the moment, and I'm not sure I have found the right mic for my voice yet (but did enjoy using an AT4050 at uni recently). Where should I be heading next ... not the highest of high end gear, but I'm not buying any more cheap crap.

EDIT - I should say that time is now on my side, I have time and space to learn how to get better from what I have ... just we all need something to aim for and I don't yet!
 
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DJL posted this and must've deleted it by mistake. Shame cos it's a decent enough post:

What do I need?

A Job? :D Thank God it's Friday... lol. :)
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I think that's fair enough. When I get my job, what equipment will I be saving up for?! :)
 
Hi I would tend to concur with your analysis. Your pres and conversion are decent - not bad. I would take a look mics and and monitoring (better monitors before better DA - you'll get more bang for your buck).

Happy shopping!
 
I know nothing about high-end gear (I am more of a cheap crap kind of recordist), but I agree you'll want some better mics. I think one nice large-diaphragm condenser and a matched pair of SDCs would go a long way toward improving your mic locker.

My wish list would be something like:

LDC - KSM 44, SP T3, AT 4050/60, AKG C414 or similar
SDC - maybe SM81 or similar

After that, you'll want to upgrade preamps.

And so on, and so on. :D
 
Yea, what was up with DJL deleting the only funny post I've seen out of him in the past year? :D :D

I'd say as far as what you need ... I guess I'd have to know more about what your goals are, and what you want to be able to do with all of this. Is there anything you'd like to be able to do that your current setup is holding you back from? You mentioned mics -- are you happy with what you have? Do you need more?

It's too hard to say without more info.
 
Good point Chessy.

At the moment I have a home setup but the intention is to include a demo/project studio as part of a youthwork music project I am spending the next few years setting up. Too boring to explain that project here; suffice to say the studio need not be of a 'pro' standard but needs to help kids be able to make music that inspires them to make more music ... the Acceptable Level of Sound Quality as CyanJaguar would say!

At that point I'll need extra A/D IOs, but for now I just need to learn, learn, learn, and set about getting 'proper' equipment, without ever needing to blow thousands on one piece of gear.

Make sense?! :)

My setup as is does not provide me with sonic satisfaction - lifeless and somewhat boxy are how it strikes me, although neither of my musician housemates can hear that.
 
chessrock said:
Yea, what was up with DJL deleting the only funny post I've seen out of him in the past year? :D :D
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I thought it was funny too... but I didn't want to sound too much like a parent or he might take it seriously and get a job. :D
noisedude said:
When I get my job, what equipment will I be saving up for?! :)
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Hopefully a car and house... lol. :)
 
Yeah yeah ... jobs will come once I've finished my teacher training in about two years - then I'll be in the real world half time and continuing to volunteer half time. A house is out of the question and my car will last at least another couple of weeks ;)
 
noisedude said:
My setup as is does not provide me with sonic satisfaction - lifeless and somewhat boxy are how it strikes me, although neither of my musician housemates can hear that.
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When we first start out, our recordings tend to sound boxy for a couple of reasons:

First off, we're basically recording and mixing in a box. Think about it. Our walls and ceilings are all parallel to one another in what amounts to be a boxed shape. And the less space we have between those walls and ceilings, the more "boxed in" we are ... the more boxed in we feel, and the more boxed in it sounds.

Secondly, it's hard for us to truly think "outside the box" when we first start out, because we're so limited by our accoustic spaces. :D I just said that because it sounded clever. Anyway, you can probably get where I'm going with this. The most common work-around to the typical project studio is room accoustics. So many of our decisions regarding even our most basic recording techniques are dictated by poor accoustics.

It's easy to fall in to the trap of buying mechanical stuff. We do that because it's fun ... it gives us a little bit of a high when we purchase it. Unfortunately, buying and installing accoustic treatment is not fun. 703 insulation is not very sexy to touch or look at. Standing waves are not particularly interesting topics to read about.

The second thing I would focus on would be having the very best instruments and amps you can possibly afford. Smooth cymbals rarely sound harsh, for example. A warm and full-sounding accoustic guitar will make for warm and full-sounding accoustic guitar tracks. Bla blab bla, you get the idea.

After you got all that squared away, then I would focus on the mic cabinet. Here's a decent post I made a while back on the Studio Forums web site regarding the necessities of a good mic locker. Fourth post down.

Here's another one from Dan Richards that's pretty decent. And here's yet another interesting spin on the subject from Ozraves on his Mojo Pie blog.

Now as long as you ignore the part about the C-1000 and the NT-1, this one by Lionel Drumond on ProRec covers most of the affordable/mid-priced studo staples.

When in doubt ... remember that you can very rarely go wrong with any of the Shure or Audio Technica condensers. Also, most any of the Electrovoice dynamic mics will probably make you happier than an sm-57. And you should probably own some mk-012s, even if you already have or can afford better.
 
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I will read all that stuff through, thanks! I just finally got rid of my C1000 (and my Behringer mixer I started out with).

I don't want to spend tonnes on treatments because this room is not permanent, and because I can't make any major alterations to it under my tenancy agreement. I will start to read up on stuff I can do in here though - at the moment I am covering up mirrors and putting blankets on mic stands in the corners of the room. I walk around clicking my fingers listening for funny reflections ... dunno if that's a very good system though!!

Thanks for your help, I will start to get my thinking together.
 
I understand Noisedude. In the process of studio development (home or pro) there are certain "stopping off points", where you have to catch your breath, deal with your gear as it is, and plan. What Chessrock says about commiting resources to your acoustic space is, of course, true. I also understand that you do not yet have the space you will eventually commit those resources to.
Given that, I think your gut feeling is correct, that you need to put some resources, over time, into your front end, mics and preamps. The Soundcraft pres are adequate for the auxiliary channels, but are less than stellar for critical chennels. What should you aspire to? My suggestion would be- 2 clean preamp channels, 2 more colored preamp channels, 2 small diaphragm condensers, 1 or 2 multipolar LD workhorses, one high end main vocal mic, a couple of better dynamics, and a higher end dynamic, for starters. Yeah, a good ribbon or two would be cool, but I would be looking at that at your next "stopping off point". There's always a next point.
Personal preferences loom heavy here, but here are a few of mine-
Clean preamps (I only deal with pairs of channels- any pre worth having is worth having 2 channels of):
Avalon AD2022, Pendulum MDP-1
Colored preamps:
Great River MP-2NV, also consider John Hardy, DW Fearn
Small diaphragm condensers- Josephson C42, Neumann KM184, Schoeps CM6
The DPA's rock by all estimation.
Workhorse mics- AKG C414 XLS, Shure KSM44 (one is good, 2 is better)
Main vocal mic- The toughest one, because they are so personal, and by your own statement, you are not impressed by your own voice. Just remember, if you get a high end vocal mic, if it isn't good on your voice, it'll be good for *lots* of other voices/instruments. Again, just my favorites-
B.L.U.E. Kiwi, Lawson L47 MKII, Brauner voice valvet, Soundelux U99, ifet7
There are a *lot* of models from Microtech Gefell, etc. that I've never used, but probably rock. Pretty much any pricey main vocal mic that makes you sound good (better) will find bizzillions of studio uses.
Dynamics- Get a couple of Sennheiser MD421's, and at least one of the following: Shure SM7, EV RE20, Sennheiser MD441.

Will all of this change the world so that everything sounds good all the time? No. Will you hear the voices of the angels? No. More likely, better detail of all the problems with the room Chessrock wants you to fix. But- I can pretty much guarantee that any of the above mics through any of the above preamps will sound better than what you have right now, a lot better.-Richie
 
Harold - it's ok, it's either an IRQ conflict or a PCI bus latency issue. The PC itself is a 2500+ Barton core Athlon machine - not about to set the gaming world on fire but with DDR400 it flies for music - 2.6ms latency ... kiss my chuddies ;)
 
That's a lot of suggestions there, Richie. Let me work my way through them!
Richard Monroe said:
In the process of studio development (home or pro) there are certain "stopping off points", where you have to catch your breath, deal with your gear as it is, and plan. What Chessrock says about commiting resources to your acoustic space is, of course, true. I also understand that you do not yet have the space you will eventually commit those resources to.
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Richard Monroe said:
Given that, I think your gut feeling is correct, that you need to put some resources, over time, into your front end, mics and preamps. The Soundcraft pres are adequate for the auxiliary channels, but are less than stellar for critical chennels.
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You're breaking my balls man! That was a big purchase ... :o
Richard Monroe said:
What should you aspire to? My suggestion would be- 2 clean preamp channels, 2 more colored preamp channels, 2 small diaphragm condensers, 1 or 2 multipolar LD workhorses, one high end main vocal mic, a couple of better dynamics, and a higher end dynamic, for starters.
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That would be a good start .. !
Richard Monroe said:
Main vocal mic- The toughest one, because they are so personal, and by your own statement, you are not impressed by your own voice. Just remember, if you get a high end vocal mic, if it isn't good on your voice, it'll be good for *lots* of other voices/instruments.
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That's the point ... how does one know a good mic to buy without ever having a source to try it on?!
Richard Monroe said:
Dynamics- Get a couple of Sennheiser MD421's, and at least one of the following: Shure SM7, EV RE20, Sennheiser MD441.
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I have that Beyer which Harvey and chessparov reckon does a good SM7 impersonation. 421s will be an essential addition in the future but, as I like my 545 and Beyer on guitar and am not tracking drums, they're not so urgent IMO.

I feel like I don't know what level to go for. A pair of CAD M179s, for example, would be a big investment for me, but would it be worth hanging on even longer for the next step up? It's like I'm missing out on all the cool cheaper stuff that I haven't used yet...but I can't afford to buy a half step and end up selling on in 12-18 months.
 
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Seriously, I hope you get the PC thing worked out with out too much trouble. Those things can be real problems sometimes.

Just like women, you know..."you can't live with 'em and you can't live wtihout 'em".

Anyway, good luck my friend.

Oh, and...by the way...you'll forgive me if I pass on kissing your "chuddies"... :)
 
Cheers! The annoyance is that on my old 1Ghz Athlon T-Bird system I never had a single problem or ran out of capacity ... the lure of building a new system was high and my brother bought the old one off me so there's no going back!
 
noisedude said:
I don't want to spend tonnes on treatments because this room is not permanent, and because I can't make any major alterations to it under my tenancy agreement. I will start to read up on stuff I can do in here though - at the moment I am covering up mirrors and putting blankets on mic stands in the corners of the room. I walk around clicking my fingers listening for funny reflections ... dunno if that's a very good system though!!
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Given your current situation, I wouldn't be in all that big of a rush to upgrade all at once. Maybe keep your eye out for some stuff that might pop up on sale or on ebay, etc.

I'd hold off any major upgrades until your living / working conditions are more etched in stone.

When I was first shopping for some moreless high end mic pres, I talked at length with Dan Kennedy (Great River) over the phone, and he flat-out advised me not to even bother forking out money on his (or any other high end) mic pres ... until I got my accoustic situation more straightened out. I certainly appreciated that kind of honesty and sincerety ... and it's turned out to be some damn good advice that I try to pass along when I can.
 
Noisedude- you asked for a wish list, not a couple of cheap condensers. Yup- in response, I listed about $25,000 worth of gear. That's a wish list. If you were asking, "how can I upgrade for a few hundred dollars?", my answer would have been different. What I have laid out is a front end, no more than 4 channels of simultaneous input, that are as good as any in the world. Yes, the big pro studios may be able to come up with 18+ channels at that level, but I do indeed work for a living. The sacrifices I have made in quality may not seem significant at your investment level, but they are. I settled for KM184's instead of Schoeps, Joemeek twinQ instead of Pendulum, B.L.U.E. instead of Brauner, Digi002 instead of Neve.
I can tell you, though, there is a great sense of satisfaction, and solid sonic results, in having just 2 channels that are world class. When I brought in my friend Aidas (a top notch AE, audio engineering consultant, and Pro Tools whiz with golden ears) to check out the upgrades, he said, "OK, what's the gold channel?" I answered, " B.L.U.E. Kiwi or a pair of KM184's into Avalon AD2022, into Digi002 into a Music XPC S2." His answer was, "So, you don't have a problem, right?" At this level, I am aware at all times of the limitations I have due to priorities. I have a Rode NTK instead of that Lawson. After the first two channels, signal chain quality drops off by stages. I have 2 great channels, 2 very good channels, 4 adequate channels, and drop back and punt. But, I built this studio to record folk and chamber music, not a live studio recording of Earth, Wind, and Fire. You have to decide what it is you are trying to do.
Sorry about making you feel challenged on the Soundcraft. It's a very good mixer. Better than Mackie, better than the Yamaha. I would never use a mixer, any mixer, for critical recording, except for extra drum channels. That's my decision. Yeah, a Neve console in good condition would be a partial exception to that rule. My decision is to do less better. You have to build your studio around what you intend to record, and what you intend to do with it. If you want a wish list, I suggest that you build about 4 channels that are as good as any in the world. If you want to know what is usable mid priced gear, ask a different question. Have bigger dreams, and then make them happen.-Richie
 
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