Tweaking my budget studio, Mic/Pre input wanted! (MP3's of last years demo inside)

J

joe4324

New member
Tweaking budget studio for Metal album, Mic/Pre input wanted! (MP3's of material)

Ok! I've been trolling these forums for a little while now and decided to join up, there is just too much good discussion for me to sit out!

Anyway in late 2002 me and a friend started a band. In early 2003 (apirl/may) we recorded our demo. It was a VERY, VERY budget setup. We recorded it in a pole barn and in my apartment. In about the worst enviroments possible for recording. But I think for the effort and the money it came out decent (considering what we were working with I should say!)

The music is Predominately Doom-Metal, with a healthy amount of classical guitar and some clean male vocals for atmosphere. Its a fairly extreme mix of styles so its proven difficult to record

you can get the mp3's here, (WARNING!: This music isnt for everyone)
In your Absence
Nights Caress

I specifically want you to listen to at least the first couple minutes of each track, The beginings of those two tracks have the most varied passages in the shortest time, so you can get the picture of what we are trying to prepare for.

This entire demo was recorded on about $700 in eqiupment. $500 of that was the audio interface. We used:

Aardvark Direct Pro 24/96 Interface system:
Link Here
1x MCA SP1 Large dia Condensor mic (there about $50...)
2x Shure SM57's

We used my Kilipsch Promedia computer speakers for monitors. We spent about 2 months of 2-3, evening sessions a week to do the whole demo.

Considering we had about $175 in mics total I think we did OK for a demo, I'm most happy with the clean vocal production and the classical guitar, I think the sound on both exceeded what I thought a cheap $50 condensor could do, at least to my ears. I'd like your input on that! All the guitars were recorded straight through, there was no mic'ing of the cabs. and NO compression was used anywere. Cooledit doesnt do it in software and I never could figure out how to enable it on the Direct Pro. I believe with compression alone it would have sounded much better.

Ok now for the questions!

We are building a studio at my friends house, Its not going to be the greatest but we are looking to get the best sound we possibly can. we want to make that demo sound like worthless. We are hoping to have a much time as nessasary to play around and get the perfect sound. But money is still tight So I want your input on were it should go, specifically microphone wise.

I am keeping the Direct Pro 24/96 as the 'heart' of the system, I've already purchased a Shure KSM32, And some Event TR6 Monitors. Everything I've read about the KSM32 appealed to me. Mostly its versatility. I went to a large music store and tried out a a couple dozen large diaphram condensors and I felt the KSM was the most 'accurate' of the selection at a >$500 price point, But I will admit it didnt color the sound with additional 'warmth' or tone like some of the others. but it was very accurate to my ears.

One question I have is how do you think the KSM 32 will fare in this type of application, I intend on using it for as much the recordings I can get away with. All Vocals,classical guitars, guitar cabs, and hopefully some piano. Do you think this is the correct mic for the job? and are there any tips you could share about how to use it in those appications?

Now, I do not have an outboard pre-amp. The Direct Pro has "discrete" pres built in, but I'm sure they are quite weak. Is there anything else I can add in the chain to really get the most out of that KSM32? Or any other mics I have? What do you recomend on a budget?

Are there any other mics that you would consider a "must have" for my situation. have any of you recorded similar sounding projects? And if so what microphone/preamp experience can you share?

Whew! that was a long post, sorry for being so long winded, but this is important to me and I want to give you the most insight I can! Ask questions!
 
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joe4324 said:
Now, I do not have an outboard pre-amp. The Direct Pro has "discrete" pres built in, but I'm sure they are quite weak. Is there anything else I can add in the chain to really get the most out of that KSM32? Or any other mics I have? What do you recomend on a budget?
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If you're on a serious budget, I would say that the preamps in your Aardvark are probably about as good as you'll get. I've heard those pres are pretty dang good; better than most pres built into a soundcard. Seriously, they have a pretty good reputation.

If you can move up to about $500 or so, you can get a two-channel pre that is fairly well-regarded (the FMR Audio RNP) or a one-channel tube pre that I happen to have and love (the Summit Audio 2BA-221) or a one-channel "clean" pre that is well-regarded (the Grace Audio 101). Any of those would be a significant step up from your Aardvark pre, I'd bet.
 
I've 'heard' the pres on the aardvark were decent for its class and price range but I never looked beyond the fact that 'it worked ok' I did alot of research before I bought it, so its nice to hear that there is a decent reputation with the preamps!

I dont think I could swing another $500 for a single component at this time, Not if we are are only talking a marginal increase in performance, Do you think the pres on the aardvark are enough to at least adequately feed the KSM32? I've read several posts were people got less then spectacular results with it, and lack of/weak pres were one of the first suggestions. I'm just afraid my $500 mic wont preform up to its ability if I cant feed it enough. thoughts?

Hearing the type of music we are trying to create are there any other 'must' have mics or equipment you can think of that could really help us out?
 
joe4324 said:
Do you think the pres on the aardvark are enough to at least adequately feed the KSM32? I've read several posts were people got less then spectacular results with it, and lack of/weak pres were one of the first suggestions. I'm just afraid my $500 mic wont preform up to its ability if I cant feed it enough. thoughts?
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I'd be pretty surprised if the Aardvark pres didn't provide enough gain for the KSM32. Unless you're distant mic'ing really quiet vocalists, I would think it would be fine. I don't haven't used the Aardvark pres, though. I've only heard good things about them, including that they're the best pres attached to a soundcard out there.
 
well your making me feel like I made the right choice for a budget interface system! I specifically bought the KSM32 because I wanted a accurate, even and uncolored sound. I figured on a tight budget I could use software and clever mic'ing techniques to get what I need for now, I didnt want to buy a mic that was going to cost $400 but only produce satisfactory results in some but not all of my applications.

I was thinking about using the KSM32 on the guitar cabs, but I keep seeing over and over again that 57's are the way to go if you have a line in, at the same time. I wish I was at home so I coudl test this out! I havent had the chance to play around yet with mic'ing or trying out the cab enclosures I made last weekend.
 
One other thing you might consider is getting some good monitors. The Klipchs are nice, but not great for mixing etc.
 
You should do fine with your setup. Nothing at all "wrong" with your recording equipment, for the most part.

I would worry more about the "other gear" you'e using. Like what kind of guitars, amplifiers, etc. As well as room treatment, accoustics, and the monitoring environment.

I know I keep saying this, but these factors will have a much larger influence/impact, ultimately, on the quality of your finished product.
 
Picker said:
One other thing you might consider is getting some good monitors. The Klipchs are nice, but not great for mixing etc.
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We have already done that, we picked up a pair of Event TR6's, they were around $400 for the pair, not the best but they sound damn good surprisingly. err I should say, sound good on recordings that were mixed with good monitors hehe. Having never used real monitors before I'm surprised at the amount of things I never noticed, both in my own recordings and in music Ive listend to for a while.
 
chessrock said:
You should do fine with your setup. Nothing at all "wrong" with your recording equipment, for the most part.

I would worry more about the "other gear" you'e using. Like what kind of guitars, amplifiers, etc. As well as room treatment, accoustics, and the monitoring environment.

I know I keep saying this, but these factors will have a much larger influence/impact, ultimately, on the quality of your finished product.
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I noticed this line, "Nothing at all "wrong" with your recording equipment, for the most part." Is there any fairly affordable modifications/additions you would make if it were you working on this project?

My mic layout, is extremely small, 2 57's, 1 MCA large dia condensor, 1 KSM32. I can probably get my hands on a couple beta 58's, but thats it as of right now.


The other gear we are using should be decent, at least appears so to me. Both guitarists will be using GT6 Processors, All cabling is monster cables. We get a good sound out of the amps, we just need to make sure we can Keep that sound throughout the recording process.

We built a 4x4x4' padded, sound proofed enclosure for micing the guitars. Its a pretty solid structure, we used 5/8" OSB for the shell, 2x4 framed, then used carpet and bedding foam as the sound proofer. (I'll repost this in the studio form to try to get some input) The enviroment we will be doing the monitoring and all acoustical recordings, will be a bedroom turned studio. It used to be bare walled with hardwood floors. But we've put carpet on the floor, we dont have the ceiling covered, not sure if we can yet. And we are looking to cover the walls two with more foam, or at least some sheets/additional carpet to reduce the room reverb.

we've got severeal rooms to record acoustical guitars, I'm sure we can figure something out for that.

Any GLARING errors yet? ;)
 
joe4324 said:
?The enviroment we will be doing the monitoring and all acoustical recordings, will be a bedroom turned studio. It used to be bare walled with hardwood floors. But we've put carpet on the floor, we dont have the ceiling covered, not sure if we can yet. And we are looking to cover the walls two with more foam, or at least some sheets/additional carpet to reduce the room reverb.
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This would be a good place to start as an area for improvement.

Don't kill all the reflections, but make sure you've got enough broadband absorption and/or bass trappage going on there. Can't stress it enough. There's so much more to it than putting foam on the wall. :D Find an Industrial Insulation outlet somewhere nearby that delivers, and order yourself a boatload of some Corning 703 Insulation wedges . . . or see if you can get a hold of some rockwool. Learn how/where to use them by visiting the Studio Building forum.

Or better yet, order some Real Traps: www.realtraps.com

Also, what are you using for overhead mics?

Are your drums pretty high quality?

What kind of guitar amps are you plugging in to? Are they good, or are they junk? Be honest. :D Ditto on your bass guitar? Did you spend a small fortune on it . . . does it have a to-die-for tone, and is it meticulously maintained and set up regularly?

Dont worry as much about your mics. The quality / condition of your drum heads, your guitar amp, and your bass guitar will have a much greater effect on your recording quality -- far more than the microphone you use to point at all of this, or what you're recording to and that kind of thing. Good instruments record well.
 
Yeah ... but my guitars already have strings and my drums already have heads ... I don't care how old they are - I want to buy something new :):D;)
 
chessrock said:
This would be a good place to start as an area for improvement.

Don't kill all the reflections, but make sure you've got enough broadband absorption and/or bass trappage going on there. Can't stress it enough. There's so much more to it than putting foam on the wall. :D Find an Industrial Insulation outlet somewhere nearby that delivers, and order yourself a boatload of some Corning 703 Insulation wedges . . . or see if you can get a hold of some rockwool. Learn how/where to use them by visiting the Studio Building forum.

Or better yet, order some Real Traps: www.realtraps.com

Also, what are you using for overhead mics?

Are your drums pretty high quality?

What kind of guitar amps are you plugging in to? Are they good, or are they junk? Be honest. :D Ditto on your bass guitar? Did you spend a small fortune on it . . . does it have a to-die-for tone, and is it meticulously maintained and set up regularly?

Dont worry as much about your mics. The quality / condition of your drum heads, your guitar amp, and your bass guitar will have a much greater effect on your recording quality -- far more than the microphone you use to point at all of this, or what you're recording to and that kind of thing. Good instruments record well.
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whoa lots of responses to this one!

OK, thanks for the info on the dow corning foam, I'll look into that. Your steadfast stance on studio/enviromental controls has me thinking alot more about it! we put enough thought into it to know we had to remove some refelctions and we know we have to add some foam to the enclosures. But we never thought much beyond that. Yet ;)

As of right now, the drums will NOT be recorded here in this studio, I dont believe we have enough equipment to do it right. nor do we have a really great place to set them up. The intention was to put everything down but the drums, then outsource the drum production. That might change in the future but thats the plan as of now.

I think our eqiupment is at least decent, 2 mediocre Dean guitars, 1 fairly decked out BC rich, a nice classical guitar, nice acoustic. one half stack is a randall, I'm not very impressed with its sound but it gets loud (not that it will help us) I think we can tweak it into sounding good on a recording, but if not we can fall back on the marshall half stack we also, its got a tube head, and sounds just awesome with the correct distortion going through it.

All cabling is monster, or whirlwind TRS, and the GT6 processors are pretty much top of the line, as of yet I dont have any vocal processing nor do I want any unless its a must.
 
joe4324 said:
one half stack is a randall, I'm not very impressed with its sound but it gets loud (not that it will help us) I think we can tweak it into sounding good on a recording, but if not we can fall back on the marshall half stack we also, its got a tube head, and sounds just awesome with the correct distortion going through it.
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I think you might be just a little too optimistic and seeing too many rays of sunshine and roses right now as far as your amp situation goes.

Like I said -- be honest.

If you're not very impressed with it's sound, but "it gets loud," that's not going to help you much come recording time. I have no doubt you'll be able to tweak something like that to make it sound "better," but for the raucious, heavy kind of music you guys are doing, the guitar tone is everything.

I say do everything you have to do to make sure your guitar tone is bitchin.' Don't settle until you plug in and "hear god" as Slipperman puts it. :D

A distortion pedal probably won't do that. You need to use an amp that records well and gives you a big-ass, ballsy tone when driven, and records that way. There's a very wide gap between an amp that sounds good when you're listening to it or practicing with it . . . and one that's actually capable of translating that tone on to a recording. Big difference, there. Certain ones can do that, while others just give you headaches and frustration.

If the Marshall does that for you, then go with that, obviously, and disregard everything I just said. :D And get ready for greatness, Lloyd.
 
joe4324, I think chessrock is right... get the sound now, because if you don't get the sound you want now... you'll never get it later either. It all starts with getting the right axe/amp combo.
 
noisedude said:
That's right ... but it's still not as much fun as buying gear.:p
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Yea, but good news . . . amps ARE GEAR ! Maybe a bit more fun if you're a guitarist, but it still looks cool and makes you just as broke nonetheless.
 
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