Should I Buy a USB Microphone?

Bobbsy said:
Not that it affects your choice but in case it helps anyone...
ASIO4ALL isn't actually a driver. It's actually a "wrapper" that makes MME devices look like an ASIO driver to your software. It's a very good and clever bit of code (and can often be very useful) but at the bottom of everything it's still using MME.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the point on Asio4all!

Bobbsy said:
As for the rest, I don't really think it's the USB mics. It's trying to make a signal transit through your computer and a couple of A to D/D to A conversions. As Scotty would have said "I cannae change the laws of physics".
Click to expand...
Ok, but if I manage to get no latency using the high end FireFace UCX, the mic would be the source of all my troubles. Right?

As I understand, I have these conversions :

A>D conversion (USB mic) -> PC USB port -> *PC internal components* -> video card HDMI ouput -> AV receiver HDMI input -> D>A -> speakers

or

Analog mic -> USB audio interface -> A>D conversion -> PC USB port -> *PC internal components* -> video card HDMI ouput -> AV receiver HDMI input -> D>A -> speakers
 
Why use the HDMI for audio? You might find the 3.5mm line out jack is better for latency?

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Why use the HDMI for audio? You might find the 3.5mm line out jack is better for latency?
Dave.
Click to expand...
Dave, the HDMI output + the reveiver DAC produce no latency in my experience.
Analog Mic > ISC > HDMI = almost no latency
And I have to send the video to my receiver too.

jace112 said:
I've tried other things :
- an analog Philipps mic ($50) plugged into the mic input of the audio card integrated to my motherboard with 3.5 jack : no latency, but the level is too weak, and the quality is not really good (as expected!)
Click to expand...
 
jace112 said:
Thanks for the point on Asio4all!


Ok, but if I manage to get no latency using the high end FireFace UCX, the mic would be the source of all my troubles. Right?

As I understand, I have these conversions :

A>D conversion (USB mic) -> PC USB port -> *PC internal components* -> video card HDMI ouput -> AV receiver HDMI input -> D>A -> speakers

or

Analog mic -> USB audio interface -> A>D conversion -> PC USB port -> *PC internal components* -> video card HDMI ouput -> AV receiver HDMI input -> D>A -> speakers
Click to expand...

The Fireface is a very high quality interface--with ASIO drivers like I've been harping on about. I suppose it's sort of true to blame the microphone for not having ASIO drivers--but for the normal use (recording) it's not nearly so important. Also, USB mics are invariably sold because they're easy "plug and play" devices, the need to install extra drivers would contradict that.
 
jace112 said:
Dave, the HDMI output + the reveiver DAC produce no latency in my experience.
Analog Mic > ISC > HDMI = almost no latency
And I have to send the video to my receiver too.
Click to expand...

Hmm, If I listen to Radio 3 via computer (ESI 1010e card) it is well out of step with R3 via Freeview but I can't remember which one gets here first!

And, not being funny but, how do you test the latency of HDMI?

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
And, not being funny but, how do you test the latency of HDMI?
Click to expand...
You mean the latency introduced by the DAC of the AV receiver?

Analog mic plugged into the mic input of the internal sound card and then HDMI output to AV receiver = no latency
 
jace112 said:
You mean the latency introduced by the DAC of the AV receiver?

Analog mic plugged into the mic input of the internal sound card and then HDMI output to AV receiver = no latency
Click to expand...

Oh yes! You said but the sound is crap.

Dave.
 
I'm going crazy.

Tonight I've tried once more using the analog mic plugged into the mic input of the integrated sound card. HDMI output straight to the receiver. And I got enough latency to get mad!

Looks like the DAC of the receiver may have an impact :-(

Tried the analog output of the ISC to the analog input of the receiver and NO latency.

The other difference is, that in the first case I used voicemeeter to mix voice and karaoke track. Is there another software that I can try? Just to hear the voice amplified. I haven't find a way to monitor and listen to it with audacity
 
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Here is the DIY installation of yesterday :

tV5F2Og.png


Conclusion : the PC introduces somehow some latency. Even with the high end Fireface UCX, there was some delay. No USB mic is really appropriate to sing karaoke in perfect conditions. (with my configuration)

I've come with a new idea that worked flawlessly with the RME yesterday : use the 2nd HDMI input of the TV :yawn:

SVkZw74.png


And I think, a much cheaper audio interface can do the job
 
I was surprised that there was ANY latency* with the RME. My son found latency a problem when trying to record a new keyboard track to an existing one but the combination of Cubase (ASIO drivers) and a 2496 PCI card was good enough, just. The latency going kbd>2496>monitors was not a problem.

*I should have said NOTICEABLE latency! There is always some, even analogue power amps have a rise time!

There are lots of demos of softwares you can try, Cubase is second only I think to Pro Tools as an industry "standard"? I like Samplitude. You can dld the Pro X ll software and if you like it get Pro X Silver for free! (8 tracks max. Doubt that a problem in your case? ) Studio One has a freebie that gets good reccys.

If you should aspire to an AI do look at the Native Instruments KA6. Not only very low latency but comes with Cubase. Reminds me there was one in Cash Gens last week, must phone them!

Dave.
 
#1 Fireface setup = latency

IRkbXdW.png


#2 Fireface setup = analog output of the fireface straight to the receiver = perfect

@Dave : thanks for the KA 6, but honestly, if I can't find a cheap alternative ($50), my daughter will have to deal with latency :D
 
I suspect your daughter will have to deal with it. The cheapest interfaces with mic inputs and ASIO drivers are around $100, not $50.

Regarding latency and computers, as I've been saying throughout, there's no such thing as a latency-free computer set up. Nothing goes straight from a USB input to the HDMI output without being held up along the way. Computers work by cycling rapidly through a whole list of tasks happening in background--have a look at the Processes tab on your task manager sometime to see just how many. To over simplify, your computer looks at the USB input, finds there's some data waiting and lets some in, then buffers it while it does things like checking all the other USB ports to see if anything has been plugged in, redrawing your video display, sending some output to your HDMI, and a host of other things before going back and taking some more data from you USB mic. All this happens in tiny fractions of a second but, as ecc83 says, there will always be latency.

The reason ASIO drivers are better is that they grab a poll position in the fight for resources and bypass a lot of the other stuff going on inside your computer. However, it's better, not perfect.

For recording, this problem can be largely eliminated. Another thing ASIO can do is calculate the timing difference between playback and the new recording and shunt the tracks accordingly. I did some testing with my DAW once by playing back a timing pulse, looping the cable via my interface back to the input and recording it. I then compared the synchronisation of the two tracks. With MME/WDM drivers, the latency was very noticeable but with ASIO it was down to a couple of milliseconds which wouldn't have been a real world problem. However, this only works for recording, not being used live.

Even pro grade gear has some latency. The design spec for my digital mixer is maximum 4ms from input to output, and less if you're not using effects. To put this in perspecitve, 4ms is the equivalent to singing a duet standing 4 feet away from your partner.

Anyhow, good luck to your daughter. Tell her to have fun (if she isn't turned off to the whole experience by now!).
 
Thanks again. I may take a look at the french craig's list for things like Steinberg UR12 for instance.

One last question ;-)

When using this setup, where do really go the signals?

I mean, how is the computer bypassed?

Mic > Audio USB : ADC > Audio USB : DAC > Audio USB : analog output ?
Audio from PC > Audio USB : DAC > Audio : USB : analog output ?

Merci
 
jace112 said:
Thanks again. I may take a look at the french craig's list for things like Steinberg UR12 for instance.

One last question ;-)

When using this setup, where do really go the signals?

I mean, how is the computer bypassed?

Mic > Audio USB : ADC > Audio USB : DAC > Audio USB : analog output ?
Audio from PC > Audio USB : DAC > Audio : USB : analog output ?

Merci
Click to expand...

When you buy an audio interface make sure it's one that has a knob to mix between the USB and the microphone. This way, the mic sound is NOT going via the computer at all. The interface is taking the signal from the mic and the music from your computer and mixing them external to the computer. Your PC becomes a simple playback device, sending the video via HDMI to your TV and the audio out to the interface where it's mixed with the mic and fed via your receiver to the computers.

However, since you're not worried about recording, how about one of these instead of an interface: Behringer Xenyx 302 USB - Thomann UK

Or, if your daughter does all the cooking and cleaning for a month so you want to be nice to her, you could try one of these that would put reverb on her voice--that's the tech secret every karaoke machine does to make voices sound better! Alesis Multimix 4USB FX - Thomann UK
 
I was about to buy this Xenyx 302, for really cheap ($35), but canceled the order because of the limited voltage of the phantom power (+15V)
 
jace112 said:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/BTSKY-Cond...8&qid=1465204860&sr=8-1&keywords=btsky+bm+800

You're talking about the mic? I guess it's gonna be easier to find a good cheap mic than the audio interface, no? BTW, the BM-800 requires +48V. That was my point on the cheap Xenyx 302
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No, you found going straight through the PC's mini jack gave low latency but you said the sound was crap? I am convinced that was due to the cheap mic and possibly Windows Sound not being set correctly (WTGR!) .

I say that last because in my experience laptop sound channels are not that bad. Not USEFUL for general recording but given a decent feed they perform fairly well. Geez! I have a recording of son on ac' guitar using the INTERNAL mic on a laptop and it is not that foul at all!

And then, even if the BM does not work thu' the lappy you still have a decent mic that will go with an AI or mixer...What's not to like?

Dave.
 
Ok, Dave, I've got it. That would the best cheapest option, you're right!

But once we've experienced the real deal with a no latency setup, hard to go back.

I may ask my children to do the washing for a while :D
 
jace112 said:
Ok, Dave, I've got it. That would the best cheapest option, you're right!

But once we've experienced the real deal with a no latency setup, hard to go back.

I may ask my children to do the washing for a while :D
Click to expand...

Well...I BLOODY TOLD YOU DINT I! The closest you will get to RME latency under $400 AFAIK is the KA6. Mine will run at 32samples (that is better than the already V good 2496 which is 64samples min') That is at 44.1kHz (never use anything else, not being a bat)

Dave.
 
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