Shiny Box Ribbon Mic, RNP noise, oh my!

S

Sonic Idiot

New member
Ok, so I bit it and bought a ribbon mic from the dude at Shiny Box...

http://www.shinybox.com

And I've givin' it a test run and those results are posted below, but...

Firstly, the mic arrived promtly. The dude at shiney box answered questions quickly and curteously. He's selling what ARE the Nady ribbon mics for a bit less and without that embarrasing NADY logo stamped on them. If you're thinking of buying one, I do recommend supporting this fellow instead of Nady (I do not know him. Freelance endorsement here.) He's willing, unlike Nady, to take one back if it's broken and help you repair it if YOU break it. And on and on. Highly, highly recommended.

Now, it is known these ribbon types suck up the gain. I've got a RNP/RNC combo and while it has enough gain to fire up the rediculously large ribbon mic, it is simply too noisy to record acoustic guitar. To wit:

http://www.dullum.net/Ribbon.wav

In that brief sample (un eq'd--proximity effect in full affect) you can hear the hiss of which I speak. But I LOVE the mellowness of the mic and I'm guessing *sigh* I'll have to buy another preamp with a tad more gain and bit less hiss. Me thinks a Great River single channel is in my near future.

A) Will this preamp solve my hiss problem.

-or-

B) Am I too stupid to know how to use my RNP.

Your input appreciated. I should mention about the sample: yes, I tried EQing out the hiss, which worked somewhat, but of course it also ruined the character of the sound.
 
if you go to the rnp sight they actually say that it's a little loud, but to make it any quieter would incur cost above (by a minimum of 100$) thier target price.

possibly a worthy trade off, but it makes (apperantly, i don't own an rnp) them not so good on gain eaters.

an rnp is on my list though.
 
OneRoomStudios said:
Are you sure the his is coming from the RNP and not the mic? Just a thought...
Click to expand...


I have the nady ribbon mic and the rnp, And unless it is on a loud sorce, the rnp is definitely too noisy.

Much better with something like the grace 101, demeter, etc.


Out of all the preamps I own, the rnp definitely wins in the noise department, but it is great on accustic guitar!
 
I love the RNP but it's noise floor at higher gain level just grates on me so much so that I sold mine last summer when I needed the money.

The Grace 101 offers enough gain (and you can get a higher gain model) but I'm not sure how it's "realism" might go with a ribbon.

Don't forget the Studio Projects VTB1. Harvey gushed about iit on ribbons. It's quiet. I've been told that Ted Fletcher did the original draft for the design.

Some mic pres that I'd choose for myself would be the Speck Mic Pre 5.0 and the Great River ME-1NV. The Speck doesn't get the respect it deserves. The Great River rightly gets lots of respect.
 
OneRoomStudios said:
Are you sure the his is coming from the RNP and not the mic? Just a thought...
Click to expand...

Ribbon mic = no self noise. And I tried it on the other handy pre I had at the moment, those being the built ins on the Layla3G, which aren't anything to write home about but good to have just for super quicky testing. They made hardly any noise cranked but didn't have quite enought oomph for the ribbon.)

I've got a VTB1 actually. I'll give it a go and post results. I'm happy to learn others have the same experience with the RNP and mine's not bunk. (I've recorded a ton with it--and achieved great results. Again, I think it's wonderful, but is no good cranked.)

I bought this ribbon for voice and hand percussion - those were two things I've been unhappy with given my current rash of gear. I'll try that out and post results. But it would be great if i could record acoustic instruments through the ribbon.
 
Sonic Idiot said:
Ribbon mic = no self noise.
Click to expand...

It is a very common fallacy. They do have self noise. When the motor is not efficient enough, the ribbon mic S/N ratio can be quite high, and you get a lot of hiss, regardless of the pre.
 
Marik is right (Marik knows everything about ribbons). A ribbon will at least have the noise of a resistor equivalent to the mic's output impedance. A 200 ohms resistor has a noise floor of about -129 dB. That's inaudible. But the signal output of a ribbon is very low also. If your preamp gain is, say, 60 dB, the noise floor moves to -69 dB. That is audible. And that's an ideal preamp that produces absolutely no additional noise. The EIN (equivalent input noise) figure tells you how much noise a preamp adds. In theory at least. Unfortunately, different manufacurers use different methods to measure EIN (input shorted or terminated by 150 ohms or 200 ohms resistor). But if your preamp has EIN @ 200 ohms of, say, -120 dB, your total noise floor in the above example (ribbon @ 60 dB gain) is -60 dB. In a real world application it can be worse, because the actual noise of the ribbon mic can be higher than just resitance noise.
 
Very useful information, I think, probably, I mean, if I were a goddamn electrician that might mean something to me. But I'm a musician: I possess no real useful skills and therefore have to work entirely in practice and not theory.

My statement, "ribbon mic = no self noise" is parroted from other sources. I really have no idea. The queston is, why would that be said? Is there a real justification for it or is it just sales-speak?
 
I have to crank my RNP to get some real sound out of a MD441......and it's hissy. Not really bad but enough to make you not want to use it there. My Sytek is quieter at the top gain.
 
Sonic Idiot said:
Very useful information, I think, probably, I mean, if I were a goddamn electrician that might mean something to me. But I'm a musician: I possess no real useful skills and therefore have to work entirely in practice and not theory.
Click to expand...
*WARNING: The following rant is not intended to hurt anyone's feelings, so please don't take offense*

I can understand that musicians are musicians and not "electricians" or engineers. What I don't understand is why they try to record themselves without the necessary knowledge. If you heard someone say, "I don't care what a pentatonic scale is, I just want play the guitar." Would you take them seriously? Musicians without any knowledge of recording go out, buy tons of recording equipment, and then gripe when they can't work it properly. They could just have easily gone to a professional studio with a professional engineer and had everything recorded properly, and it would probably cost less too (I know great studios that charge around $20-$50/hr). But for some reason, musicians have the attitude that going to the studio is expensive and it's better to just do it themselves. I can understand wanting a rough sketch for getting ideas down, etc...but then you don't need much equipment and it doesn't have to sound perfect. If you want professional results in recording you have two choices:

1. Learn all you can about recording and engineering, even the "boring" stuff and the details that it seems only "electricians" should know. Learn through experience by recording many many many things. Buy lots of expensive gear. Experiment, learn more, and then apply all you have learned.

2. Go to a professional studio.

It seems to me that for the average musician the second alternative would be a lot easier. I do understand though that there are two big caveats. The first being that not every "professional studio" turns out professional results. This is sad but true. I only hope that reputation and credits protect musicians from these. The second is that some people enjoy recording for fun. These people should by all means continue to do so, but I think they would be interested in the details.


my two cents.

-Peter
 
OneRoomStudios said:
*WARNING: The following rant is not intended to hurt anyone's feelings, so please don't take offense*



1. Learn all you can about recording and engineering, even the "boring" stuff and the details that it seems only "electricians" should know. Learn through experience by recording many many many things. Buy lots of expensive gear. Experiment, learn more, and then apply all you have learned.

-Peter
Click to expand...

Well said. Some people are just too "smart" for their own good.
 
One other thought. I have found that ribbons pick up EMF from sources such as computers, florescents, much more so than a condenser. For example if I am recording with my condenser mics, I can leave my quietized computer on (roughly 20' from mics), but if I am recording with a ribbon it immediately gets a hum from the computer. I would recommend searching for other EMF culprits before laying out the big bucks.

I have a sample of the R84 & R92 on acoustic guitar which unfortunately demonstrates the EMF problem. So I hesitate to put it up, but if there is interest, and if members will forgive me for a less than perfect mic positioning on the R84, and a slight hum, I could post it. Definitely shows what a nice mic the R92 is on the guitar.
 
I second what Peter said. And yes, unfortunately many self-acclaimed engineers in commercial project studios don't know much, either. Buying a lot of stuff and surrounding yourself with good gear doesn't make you an engineer.

Sonic Idiot said:
My statement, "ribbon mic = no self noise" is parroted from other sources. I really have no idea. The queston is, why would that be said? Is there a real justification for it or is it just sales-speak?
Click to expand...

Actually, at least Thomann (I think Nady, too) state the self noise in their sales literature (18 dB-A). Other dynamic mics have self noise as well, although it is rarely spec'd. AKG give noise figures on some dynamics.

Shiny Box 23 is essentially the same as the Thomann or Nady ribbons.
 
I'm not offended by oneroomstudio, but I also didn't ask for your opinion on who you think should and should not record themself. Regardless, you're wrong. I can learn perfectly well what gear does what and when without knowing the how. I'll leave that to gear manufacturers. It's not that I'm uniterested in learning how it works, I just assume it takes about as much time to really get it as it does to learn modal scale theory (which I assure you Robert Johnson knew very little about.) I just don't have the time. So, please, I posted an example and was fishing for thoughts on the example and not for a pointless rant from a boob who doesn't get it.

Now, the Shinybox 23 is the same as the Nady, (this comes straight from the fellow selling them, who OBVIOUSLY should let mic sale Pros like Nady do the selling. Who does he think he is?) save the xlr plug instead of an attached cable, which is nice. I haven't had the opportunity to run through the SP pre amp, but I'll let y'all know the results, which hopefully won't compel some maroon to contend why I should give my money to some fuck-o in a studio instead of learning how to do it myself.
 
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