Problems with Shure PG42 and phantom power

[rob aylestone]

Trouble with XLR USB devices that claim to give phantom power is that as they obtain their power as 5V from the computer, they have to convert it to 48V, and many just can't do it with the required current (as per the 48V phantom spec) - so as many, but by no means all, phantom mics can work down to around 9V, sometimes they get away with it. In virtually all cases, 9V instead of 48V does result in worse audio performance, but some mics just don't work. These devices also often are optimised (and that's even a dodgy word to use) for people talking loudly, close up, into them - and any attempt to record quieter or more distant sources fails miserably. A proper device that does in AND out makes a huge difference.

 

[ecc83]

"You say potato..." When I started "tech" at 16 some 54 years ago the "world" had already replaced "condenser*" with capacitor so, in this respect at least I don't consider myself a pedantic old duffer!
I do quite often give "aka condenser" nod to our colonial cousins who of course have not even embraced SI units yet!

*Which of course USED be called "Leyden Jars"!

Dave.

 

[ecc83]

Trouble with XLR USB devices that claim to give phantom power is that as they obtain their power as 5V from the computer, they have to convert it to 48V, and many just can't do it with the required current (as per the 48V phantom spec) - so as many, but by no means all, phantom mics can work down to around 9V, sometimes they get away with it. In virtually all cases, 9V instead of 48V does result in worse audio performance, but some mics just don't work. These devices also often are optimised (and that's even a dodgy word to use) for people talking loudly, close up, into them - and any attempt to record quieter or more distant sources fails miserably. A proper device that does in AND out makes a huge difference.

Yes Rob and the problem is not confined to "inline" devices. My otherwise excellent NI KA6 has pretty feeble phantom power capability as tested against the standard of 10mA per channel (which would deliver just 16 V externally. Do not be fooled) However, as I have said before, it powers both my AKG P150s or my Sontronics STC-2 with no ill effects that I can hear. Most capacitor mics these days only need 3mA or less and are happy with a lower voltage. This is the price you pay for total USB bus power and I wish NI had provided a power socket for "boost use". I really don't understand the total lack of budget USB Three AIs? The extra 2 watts would go a long way toward "stiffer" spook juice and perhaps a second headphone output?

I also bought a two channel phantom power supply some months ago. Bloody useless really. Did not get close to the 10mil specc even for one channel. The sad thing was the wall rat was capable of the power but the internal design of the unit (crappo diode pump) made it puny.

Caveat bloody emptor!

Dave.

 

[fillyj0nk]

Ah, keen! I like that! I would say, from the speccs, that Tascam is about as "state of the art" as you are likely to get for $140 in an AI. That said, the "art" is really in the last few dBs of headroom and pre amp noise and the latter is very unlikely to bother you with a capacitor mic. In any case Bobs said the i02 pre amps were pretty good anyway.

With your present ancillary gear and (WTGR!) level of skill I very much doubt you would tell the two units apart in a blind test. Maybe you have not said or this old duffer has missed it but what are the make and model of headphones you use? Maybe get the i02 first and then keep saving for some better cans?

At some point in the future if you get a bit serious, you will need to look at proper monitor speakers (present and anticipated spend all gone again and then some!) and room treatment but the latter need not cost a great deal.

Dave.

Based on what you and Bobbsy are saying, I think I am better off with the iO2. If I get really serious and want something more advanced, then I can upgrade.

I'm going to use a pair of my dad's headphones. I can't find them at the moment, so I'll have to ask him about it later. He's a CD collector so they should be decent quality.

As for speakers, I'm not sure what monitor speakers are. Could you explain? My family does have a pair of Insignia computer speakers that we use to play music on a desktop computer, as well as two giant Magneplanar speakers.

 

[arcaxis]

- The Alesis IO2 will be fine to start with and likely you won't need to upgrade for sometime.

- For headphones it's preferable to use a 'closed back' type so the backing tracks or whatever you may be listening to doesn't 'bleed' back to the microphone. If you're not sure of what your dad has, post the make and model and we can probably figure out if they'll work OK. (If they are Beats headphones, likely you may not want to use them ) The headphones I typically use are Sony MDR-7506 Headphones | Musician's Friend or Sennheiser HD 280 PRO Closed-Back Headphones | Musician's Friend

- Monitors/speakers are what will take a big hit on the bank account for something decent. I have a pair of JBL LSR305 5" Two-Way Powered Studio Monitor LSR305 B&H that I finally got after a couple others that just didn't work out well. These JBL's do go on sale every so often. Note that the price is for just one monitor, not a pair. There are bunches of different monitors available, some good, some not so good. If you find something that you think would fit your budget ask here before buying for some opinions. You could probably get by for a while with just headphones just starting out. I think there may be some info in the 'Stickies' explaining monitors and why you want them versus computer or stereo speakers.

 

[fillyj0nk]

- The Alesis IO2 will be fine to start with and likely you won't need to upgrade for sometime.

- For headphones it's preferable to use a 'closed back' type so the backing tracks or whatever you may be listening to doesn't 'bleed' back to the microphone. If you're not sure of what your dad has, post the make and model and we can probably figure out if they'll work OK. (If they are Beats headphones, likely you may not want to use them ) The headphones I typically use are Sony MDR-7506 Headphones | Musician's Friend or Sennheiser HD 280 PRO Closed-Back Headphones | Musician's Friend

- Monitors/speakers are what will take a big hit on the bank account for something decent. I have a pair of JBL LSR305 5" Two-Way Powered Studio Monitor LSR305 B&H that I finally got after a couple others that just didn't work out well. These JBL's do go on sale every so often. Note that the price is for just one monitor, not a pair. There are bunches of different monitors available, some good, some not so good. If you find something that you think would fit your budget ask here before buying for some opinions. You could probably get by for a while with just headphones just starting out. I think there may be some info in the 'Stickies' explaining monitors and why you want them versus computer or stereo speakers.

My dad's headphones are close-backed, really heavy duty Sennheiser ones. I'm not sure of the exact model but he says they cost about $150 dollars and he needs an adapter because the plug is too big for small devices (I-Phones, etc). He's also got a cheaper pair (about $40) which are also closed-back Sennheiser headphones. Do you think those would work?

I think at this point I can go without monitors, but when I do get them I'll ask for opinions here.

 

[Bobbsy]

Trouble with XLR USB devices that claim to give phantom power is that as they obtain their power as 5V from the computer, they have to convert it to 48V, and many just can't do it with the required current (as per the 48V phantom spec) - so as many, but by no means all, phantom mics can work down to around 9V, sometimes they get away with it. In virtually all cases, 9V instead of 48V does result in worse audio performance, but some mics just don't work. These devices also often are optimised (and that's even a dodgy word to use) for people talking loudly, close up, into them - and any attempt to record quieter or more distant sources fails miserably. A proper device that does in AND out makes a huge difference.

I have to say I've never (over 30 or 40 years) noticed a difference in audio quality with a lower-than-spec phantom supply. I have quite a few different large and small format condensers that they sound the same to me whether on my USB-powered cheapie interface or my stupidly-expensive-puts-out-48V mixer. Over the years I've found some mics that just won't work on lower than normal phantom but it's usually a work or don't work scenario, not an audio difference. I suppose some of the ones that didn't work at all might start up but sound bad if the voltage was just on the edge but I've never had this as a problem.

"You say potato..." When I started "tech" at 16 some 54 years ago the "world" had already replaced "condenser*" with capacitor so, in this respect at least I don't consider myself a pedantic old duffer!
I do quite often give "aka condenser" nod to our colonial cousins who of course have not even embraced SI units yet!

*Which of course USED be called "Leyden Jars"!

Dave.

Well, not specifically microphones, but I usually call capacitors "those b****y rotten things that keep leaking so I have to fix the power supply again".

My dad's headphones are close-backed, really heavy duty Sennheiser ones. I'm not sure of the exact model but he says they cost about $150 dollars and he needs an adapter because the plug is too big for small devices (I-Phones, etc). He's also got a cheaper pair (about $40) which are also closed-back Sennheiser headphones. Do you think those would work?

I think at this point I can go without monitors, but when I do get them I'll ask for opinions here.

At $150 there are several Sennheiser models they could be but they're all pretty good--certainly enough to start with.

As for monitors, if you get deeper into this recording lark, you'll eventually find it easier to get a good mix on good monitors. Monitors are designed not to sound "good" but, rather, to show you music warts and all. A mix done on monitors is more likely to sound good wherever it's played whereas you might need to try you headphone mix on a few other devices and make small adjustments so it sounds okay on, say, your car stereo, home hifi and your audiophile friends silly system It's just a matter of learning how a mix needs to sound on 'phones that makes speakers easier--but far from necessary at startup. Frankly, you're better waiting a while and buying GOOD monitors rather than just getting something cheap because HR said you needed them.

Have fun!

 

[ecc83]

The Magnaplanars ARE very expensive "audiophile" speakers that are very well regarded but whether they are in the "wow! Great!" overblown sound camp or in the Electrostatic, Spendor, Kef R105 arena of very good but accurate I do not know.
Still, can't hurt to burn a good take to CD and have a listen! In fact try your recordings on as many systems, car, grott box, hi fi, iThings as you can.

A word of caution. Especially with a really big expensive audio system it is always tempting to play things too loudly. One good test is to record some speech (someone else and male if poss') and have them stand between the speakers and recite then balance the levels. See, "loud" is always "better" to our caveman/woman brains but that don't make it "right"!

Two printouts to leave around at birthday/crimble times? A modest, $20 Digital Multimeter and a similarly priced sound level meter.

Dave.

 

[fillyj0nk]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'm going to buy the Alesis for now. I'll consult the forum again when I decide to get more equipment.

 

[CSP]

One thing that you haven't said (although not necessarily associated with your initial request) is what will you be recording (voice instrument, etc), how many tracks to make up the song and ultimately what software will you be using and I guess the last, what is the purpose of your recordings.

The answer to all of these will ultimately determine what you have to buy in the future --- this includes room acoustic treatment. AND all of which if done correctly will most probably keep you in the "poor house" for a VERY long time.

WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF SOUND RECORDING !!!!!!!!!!

David