Preamp or no preamp?

WERNER 1

WERNER 1

Member
Hey guys, this queston is in regards to micing a guitar cab........

I was wondering what the advantage of running a SM-57 or Beta 57 through......let's say a VTB1 and then into the mixing board......verses just running it straight to the board. (we're getting some poor results just using the 57 straight.....still working on placement, but looking for other solutions.)

This will be a live application.

Also is there anything special that would need to be done as far as hooking the preamp to the board? it just runs into the 1/4" in correct?

Thanks,
Rick
 
Not knowing what kind of mixer you have I can't say if the VTB1 will be better or not, but if you do use it, then you need to run the outputs of that to the line in of your board. Chances are, the VTB1 is going to be better than most budget mixers, but use your ears.
 
The mic needs a pre-amp. Whether you run it through the VTB1 and then send it to the 1/4 inch jack on the board, or use a mic preamp on the board (assuming it has one) is up to you.

The output of the VTB1 goes to the 1/4 jack on the board as you've described. The 1/4 jack is meant for line inputs, the output of the VTB1 preamp is at line level.

When you said you tried running the mic straight to the board, did you connect it to the XLR connector (the pre-amp) or to the 1/4 inch jack? You would have needed an adapter of some sort to do the latter, and it would have bypassed the pre-amp, producing a very low signal.

When you say "we're getting some poor results just using the 57 straight" are you talking about volume, tone...what?
 
Why is it not a very good question? (Just want to do things right here on the BB)

Yes, direct is in through the XLR input of the board.

The "Results" are thin, no bottom end, and just whimpy sounding over all........nothing like the cab really sounds like.

Thanks,
Rick
 
WERNER 1 said:
Why is it not a very good question? (Just want to do things right here on the BB)
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Because when I first read the post, the only thing in it was

WERNER 1 said:
Hey guys, this queston is in regards to micing a guitar cab........
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So you edited the post to make me look like a jerk. Thanks. :mad:
 
WERNER 1 said:
Yes, direct is in through the XLR input of the board.

The "Results" are thin, no bottom end, and just whimpy sounding over all........nothing like the cab really sounds like.

Thanks,
Rick
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Sounds like you're doing everything right. Make sure the eq knobs on that mixer channel are flat, sometimes they get mis-adjusted by accident. You might try boosting the bass freqs on the mixer channel eq as well, maybe it just doesn't have quite the balls that the VTB1 has. Start by placing the mic pointed at the speaker cone, an inch or two from the grill, then move it towards the edge of the speaker a little at a time to get the sound you want.

It may also be that you need more volume coming out of your amp. If all else fails, try another channel on the mixer; maybe the one you're using has issues, or just use the VTB1; it sounds like it's giving you the sound you want.
 
Sorry about the edited post thing, I've been having issues with posting here, and it seems like the only way to fake out this BB is to hurry up and type in something real quick and submit it, then go right back in and edit it. :) If I try and type out the whole new thread then it won't post up for some reason.

Yeah, the eq on the board was flat, now it has a bit of low's added in, and that helps a bit, but still not satisfied. I'll mess with it a bit tonight.

Thanks!!!!!
 
WERNER 1 said:
Sorry about the edited post thing, I've been having issues with posting here, and it seems like the only way to fake out this BB is to hurry up and type in something real quick and submit it, then go right back in and edit it. :) If I try and type out the whole new thread then it won't post up for some reason.
Click to expand...

Hey Werner - To solve your posting problems, just clear your cookies from your browser and then close you browser and open it back up again. This should solve your problem. If it doesn't contact Dragon about it.
 
WERNER 1 said:
Hey guys, this queston is in regards to micing a guitar cab........

I was wondering what the advantage of running a SM-57 or Beta 57 through......let's say a VTB1 and then into the mixing board......verses just running it straight to the board. (we're getting some poor results just using the 57 straight.....still working on placement, but looking for other solutions.)

This will be a live application.

Also is there anything special that would need to be done as far as hooking the preamp to the board? it just runs into the 1/4" in correct?

Thanks,
Rick
Click to expand...

You have to go from the VTB-1 to the INSERTS on your board (if you have them). The 1/4" line in, or XLR inputs still go through your board's pre-amps.
 
acorec said:
You have to go from the VTB-1 to the INSERTS on your board (if you have them). The 1/4" line in, or XLR inputs still go through your board's pre-amps.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's common for the 1/4" line input to go through the pre-amp, but if it does, it certainly doesn't get the same gain applied as a signal applied to the XLR input. Your point is probably valid if the user is worried about adding additional color to the signal.

Noisedude brought up this tidbit in a previous post; apparently it's common for mixer designers to attenuate line inputs and then pass them through the preamp circuitry.
 
What cab are you trying to mic up? If it's a closed back 4x12 you will find that the sound of a single close positioned mic on one of the speakers will never sound the same as the sound you hear from the cab on stage.

Open back 1x12 and 2x12 cabs are much better for having the same sound from a single close mic as they have on stage.

You say this is for live use. What size of venue are we talking about? What board are you using? Is this a live recording or a sound reinforcement application?

If this is for a sound reinforcement application then the sound of the venue and the PA comes into play and could be affecting the sound in an undesirable way.

You shouldn't need to run the mic through an external pre amp to improve the sound. Mic positioning and the eq on the desk should be good enough, unless the desk is really bad and has poor pre amps and poor eq.

I think you need to work on establishing the root cause of the problem before trying to use extra equipment to fix it.

Pete.
 
As Acorec said, you must go into the inserts to bypass the second pre. Otherwise you get the sound of the lesser pre (weakest link) with added noise and lower s/n ratio, cuz you're chaining two units.
 
Roger on the inputs! :)

Ok, here are all of the gorry details........

This application is at a Church.........now before you all start getting these visions in your heads of a couple of Peavey BackStage's and Hondo II copies getting drowned out by a little old lady on an organ the size of Texas........Let me clarify a bit if you will.......

The auditorium seats around 1000, and our stage is 130' across. We usually run the db. level just under 100.........not your typical church set up. :)

Here's where we've run into problems.......In an effort to minimize the sound coming off of the stage we have switched to an earbud monitoring system (E2 and E3's....not too bad, just gotta drive those suckers in to China to get some good bass response! :) ) We've also built a couple of 4' x 4' boxes that are lined with acoustical foam to house our guitar cabs one Vox 2x12, and one Boogie 1x12. The Vox is sealed, and the Boogie is 1/2 open. We are using SM 57's to mic these cabs, and then our ear buds are getting fed from a 56 channel Yamaha monitor board.(Not specificly a monitor board, just a mixing counsel dedicated for this use.) Both cabs are powered by Fender amps = A Hot Rod Deville, and a Deluxe Reverb 4x10.

I have mostly been playing bass here, due to the fact that they didn't have anyone when I first started going there.......even though my main instrument is Lead guitar..shredder through and through! :) I've recently started playing Lead and have been running my rig through the Boogie 1x12.

My Rig: Carvin Quad X 4-Channel Tube Preamp, Boogie 50/50, Quadraverb, and more custom pedals than I care to admit (11, but who's counting.).
Guitars: 64 Gibson SG Standard, Custom shop Jackson Soloist, Kramer Striker 300St., Strat........and a few others. :D

The EQ is set flat on the Yamaha board, and I know that I get great bass response with my ear buds as it's the same earbud line I use for my bass.....and it'll rumble my brains out if I let it. when I bring the cab up out of the "Box" it sounds Killer, it's just not making it to my ear buds.

Now as I'm thinking about it, the sound guy said that the last time I played Lead he had a hard time dialing the low end out of my sound??? I was pushing it pretty good to compensate for the lack of bottom end in my earbed mix, but I don't think it was too much.

I'll have to get on a wireless unit and go out by the sound booth to hear what's coming out of the house compared to my earbuds.

OK, know you know it all ............and then some! :)
 
My gut reaction is that the reason why what you are getting out of the mics not sounding 'like how the cabs really sound' is that the enclosures that you have built are altering the sound. You are used to hearing the cabs in a big open space rather than a tiny foam lined one. The isolation boxes are swallowing the sound is my theory.

I know this may sound like heresy, but if you want to minimize the sound from the stage area why not just go DI from the guitar and bass to the board.
 
Werner 1,
It sounds like you are running your monitors and front of house from the same desk with both running through the same eq, so boosting the bass on the eq gives you more bass both through the PA and in your monitors. For a 1000 seat auditorium you should have separate front of house and monitor desks.

Your in-ear monitors will not give you the same sound as a PA rig pushing +100dB in a 1000 seat auditorium.

Let the sound guy deal with the front of house sound, by adjusting amp controls and mic positions if he has to, then have the monitor guy (if you have a separate monitor desk) eq your monitors so that things sound the way you like them. If you are running everything off the one desk then let your sound guy do his thing. If your monitoring has a poor sound as a result then so be it because the front of house sound is now ok and your audience are hearing a good sound.

If poor monitoring is putting you off your playing then learn to deal with it. I play bass and guitar and can play gigs/record without hearing my instrument or with it so loud I can barely hear anything else or anywhere in between. I've learnt how to cope with poor on stage sound after playing in bands for 18 years. Yes it's nice to have good monitoring, but sometimes it's just not possible due to the technical/sonic limitations of the equipment and venue.
Pete.
 
Direct!?!?! :eek: No Way (Although my bass rig is direct :( )

We are running a seporate house board(s) a couple of fancy Yamaha's that have motorized sliders and page memory........I hate them things! (Pain in the butt to EQ :( )

I too have played in bands over 20 years and have had bad---->worse monitoring situations. This earbud set up has really worked well, we are getting exactly what we want at the volumes we want........my bass rig sound unbelievable!

One little twist is that I will be getting my own speaker cab, Box, and channel hear in the next couple of weeks. I ordered an EarCandy Buzzbomb w/eminence speakers.....supposed to have insane amounts of bottom end. As of right now I'm sharing one of the other guitar players channel, and I don't want to mess around with his set up too much.

Since I will have my own line, I was looking into all of the different options for micing this up (like the VTB1 thing) I've been reading about the Senn. E609, and it seems like it may be a good choice as well. I'll probably try my reg. 57, Beta 57, and the e609(Still need to get some feedback in the difference between the silver versions and the older black versions as both are still available....anybody???) Hopfully with these three mics I will be able to find a good solution.

You are very correct in the house sound being foremost in priority. It seemed when I was playing one nite after rehearsal, I took my ear buds out and they were EQ'ing my guitar in the house and it sounded real good, but there is a bit of illusion being on stage behind the speakers.............I gotta get out front and play some how.

Thanks again guys!!
 
You guys need an Aviom system for monitoring. You need to come out of the line out of your amps to feed the house and forget micing in a 4X4 box.
 
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