Are overhead mics just too subjective?

B

BeagleFaceHenry

Member
I’m having a hard time finding “go-to”, or “industry favorite ” overhead mics. I’m trying to upgrade my band’s drum mics and I think I need some assistance picking overheads.

I have a grown-up blues-rock band. Our recording space is small, not too bright, minimally acoustically treated, with annoyingly pitched ceilings.
I'm recording to Sonar X2 through a Tascam 1641. I use a Studio Projects B1 for vocals. The guitar gets a sennheiser 906 (and the B1 usually). Bass is going DI (and I'm playing with the B1 here too).

We've been using entry level CAD mics on the drums, and I hate them. The kick has no balls and the overheads are too dull.
I think I've talked myself into the Audix D6 for the kick.
I have no idea what to do for overheads. I can spend up to $250/mic but I'd rather spend less. I do have a random Sure KSM 109 that I've never found a use for, I'd get a 2nd one for overheads but they only exist used, and I want new.
I'm worried that condensers will be way too hot, but I'm worried that dynamics will be too boring. A pitched ceiling makes placement challenging.
Thoughts?
Thanks!
-j
 
I've been using SM81 mics in XY for the last few years. I put them so their axis is perpendicular to the line from the snare to the kick, aimed to put the snare directly in the middle of the image. The reason I do XY is to have one arrival time in the overheads for each close miced drum, to enable time alignment. Time alignment isn't always necessary, or even desirable, but I like the results so it's what I do. I've used them as a spaced pair as well, with good results. The studio they're in is pretty damped down, so not a lot of room getting into the recording.

To get new you'd probably have to spend more. They are available for about $250 used. There are probably some other SDC cardioid mics that would work just as well for less money.
 
I gotta go with the SM81's also. My reason being that they are the flattest curve of most SDC's and because of this are not going to be artificially amplifying any room nodes that you probably have already going for you. You will probably really have to look at reasonably priced used pairs for your needs. There are mics that are new in your range but I'm not certain you would get a handle on the room with something that might have bumps in frequencies not conducive to your environment.
Research the polar graphs on the mics you look at....go back to your existing recordings and pull up the overheads and sweep them with an EQ. This should give you a basic view of what you're hearing in your room.

Whatever you choose, a LOT of choices will be better than those CAD condensers that come in the kits.

As for the D6...and I own two of them, they are great mics but they are also very scooped from the get-go. It's kind of like an automatic heavier rock kik drum sound. If that's what you're wanting you can't go wrong with the D6. It's basically set and forget and to their credit they will take EQ fairly well especially in the studio.

I recently ran into a great deal on an EV N/D868 kik mic and it surprised me as to how good it sounds and how easy it is to place. It's another 'automatic' kik mic but different than the D6. Cheaper too.

I do own several 'popular' kik drum mics so I'm able to compare these on different kits as well as the studio kit here.
 
BeagleFaceHenry said:
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We've been using entry level CAD mics on the drums, and I hate them. The kick has no balls and the overheads are too dull.
Click to expand...

Curious what CAD o/h's? Generally- it would be rare to find SD condensers from the low end that aren't hyped up top. (Re; the SM81 for example that is quite flat.

Also, do you see the o/h's as representing the basic of the whole kit, or more cymbal 'spots?
 
Thanks for responses folks.
mixsit, I'm not near the set now, I don't know the models, but representing the kit. I think i've given up on the dream of close micing everything for now. But I'm hoping to get good stereo.
My space is a little tight, is the NT5 too hot to sit close to the top of the kit? I've been leaning that way but I'm nervous it won't work for my room.
 
I have had good luck using just two mics with a single medium to largish diaphragm condenser behind the drummer aimed generally at the snare and either a dedicated kick mic like a D6 or another condenser in front of the kick.. for pure cymbals with some kit the 81s are perfect. I haven't ever tried them without a snare mic so I cant comment on that.
 
Good stereo needs a really good drum kit, and seriously expensive metalwork for the drummer to hit. My personal opinion is that the choice of overheads on anything other than a really good kit is going to be eq adjustable. The room and the kit do virtually all the work. A cheapish pair of condensers on a great kit works better than expensive ones on a cheap one. All the faffing around making tiny differences by swapping mics is futile if the kit just doesn't let them shine.
 
Excellent, thanks everyone!

Gecko, I have found in the past that I can't always get a condenser far enough away from the cymbals to not clip. I'm worried that if I spend money on condensers, the combination of my placement restrictions and my drummer's volume will be too loud for a sensitive mic.

Rob, I don't disagree. Obviously crap in = crap out. Not only are we upgrading our mics, but we're practicing our instruments, reinforcing our fundamentals, treating our space, writing new tunes, etc. We know great musicians can get great recordings from crappy equipment, but personally I've never seen a great musician choose to use crappy equipment. Is there a professional studio or recording artist making a living using the cheapest, entry level mics available? Why not give ourselves the best opportunity to shine? This is a microphone forum, so I'm asking microphone questions, not a kit or room forum.
 
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BeagleFaceHenry said:
Gecko, I have found in the past that I can't always get a condenser far enough away from the cymbals to not clip. I'm worried that if I spend money on condensers, the combination of my placement restrictions and my drummer's volume will be too loud for a sensitive mic.
Click to expand...

What matters more is the maximum SPL rating of the mike, rather than its sensitivity. In the case of the NT5, the max is 143dBSPL. RODE Microphones - NT5

The SM81 has a max of 138 or 146, depending on the load:
"Maximum SPL (at 1,000 Hz)
800 ohm load: 136 dB (attenuator at 0) 146 dB (attenuator at -10)
150 ohm load: 128 dB (attenuator at 0) 138 dB (attenuator at -10)"

If your drummer kits louder than this, then you are in a spot of bother. However that's unlikely to be the case. What you would have to take care with is the gain settings on your interface.
 
That's the info I'm looking for! So, you're saying the 81 has the ability to handle a louder drummer slightly better than the NT5 if used correctly?
I'm always skeptical of mics with switches, should I look for, or be afraid of a mic with a 15db attenuator?
 
BeagleFaceHenry said:
That's the info I'm looking for! So, you're saying the 81 has the ability to handle a louder drummer slightly better than the NT5 if used correctly?
I'm always skeptical of mics with switches, should I look for, or be afraid of a mic with a 15db attenuator?
Click to expand...

Pads on condensers are good to have. Since a condenser has internal active circuitry, it can clip internally. Nothing downstream can fix this, so they often put pads in them to allow them to handle high SPL sources. It's not the amount of attenuation that matters, it's the overall maximum SPL with the pad engaged.

Also, the sensitivity tells you something about how strong the signal will be with a given SPL. A less sensitive mic will give a lower output, less voltage for the same SPL. Better preamps tend to have more gain range to handle more voltage range.
 
Dynamic mics fall into two different types, moving coil and ribbon. Never say never, but moving coil mics rarely get used as overheads. An exception or two might be if the mics in question have transient response on the fast side and extended frequency response. Sennheiser 441, Beyerdynamic M88 and EV RE20 come to mind. Throwing all that out the window, people have used SM57's, even though they're going to limit what you can get.

Good ribbon mics are popular as overheads.
 
BeagleFaceHenry said:
Excellent, thanks everyone!

Gecko, I have found in the past that I can't always get a condenser far enough away from the cymbals to not clip.
Click to expand...

Kinda depends on the position relative to the cymbals.

I use LDCs in an M/S overhead configuration. The mics are about 7' off the ground, and only about 4' above the kit...but I put them "inside" the kit...right over the drummer's kick drum knee...so they are not in-line with the cymbal edges, which is where the cymbals project the loudest.
That way, the OH mics pick up the toms, snare louder than they pick up the cymbals. The only spot-mics I use are on snare and kick.
 
I've had to use pads with microphones on overhead/snare plenty of times.
The signal being hot enough to clip your converters does not necessarily mean that the capsule itself is being pushed beyond any limits.
 
Ok, so no dynamics then. I believe Audix sells a kit that includes the D6 and 3 dynamics. I was considering going that way, but nope.
Pads are OK. I'm over my attenuator skepticism. Thanks.
Miro or Steen, do you have any recommendations? Miro, why LDC not SDC?
 
I don't have vast experience here. I have a pair of Oktava mk219s and sm81s that I've never felt the need to upgrade.
I don't really record kit too often, all the same.
 
I dont use condensers either. In a small room no reason to. Hell Ive used SM57s no problem. And Ive used XY, not used it, spread out front, from behind....seriously they can all work or not work if you dont get the distance right. But always remember that cymbals will overpower everything.
 
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