Original Sennheiser e602 Mics (and kick drums in general)

A

adam79

New member
When's the last time any of you have seen an original Sennheiser e602 mic for sale? I've probably been looking once a day for almost a month and NOTHING! I guess when someone bought one back in the day they all dug it and no one wants to sell their's. Unless they're broke and need the money I'm guessing.
I've read multiple forum posts about the OG e602 and the new e602 II and 95%, if not more, people say the OG version is hands down better. Better materials, better everything apparently. I also hate to buy mics online without hearing them, especially older ones...it's such a crap shoot. I'm also interested in the original MD-421 U, but people that have 10+ all say that everyone sounds different (not for the better) and there's always one diamond in the rough that sounds the way the owner expected for that caliber of mic. I'd really prefer the MD-421 U over the e602 just because of it's insane versatility. I also like the MD-441, although I read that it's sensitive to vibration, and that's not a good thing for a mic that's gonna be used on the kick. A couple people disagreed tho. One guy said it could handle being right next to a 132dB hand gun while it's going off and capture the sound perfectly, so who knows?! I literally lost the auction in the last 5 seconds by only $6. Pretty heinous shit. I'm pretty sure that the 441 is considered one of the best dynamic mics ever made. This one had a broken grill tho. One side was half on half off (although it looked secure) and then the front part of the grill was missing. I just figured that a windscreen and maybe some Gorilla Glue would solve the problem (atleast on the side part of the grill).
I really need a kick mic to add to my pathetic locker. Right now I just have a pair of MCA SP1's, a SM57 and a crap $40 Shure AXS 2. I found a cheap $9 mod on eBay that replaces the three weakest links in the circuit. I guess the one that's most important is something that controls a function of the capsule. The other mod out there over at microphone-parts.com is like $130. It pretty much replaces every part of the circuit and then for another $150-200 you can replace the capsule. That's way outta my price range tho. I'd rather go with the kick mic. I'm definitely gonna try out that $9 mod tho. I had a good talk with the guy that created it and he seems legit. Anyways, anyone have any suggestions on kick mics that are on the cheaper side and maybe underrated? The cheapest one that I can think of that still get's positive reviews is the MXL A55 Kicker, it's $99 new. I like the sound of the Beyer TG D50D in those YouTube mic shootouts, but I think that ones $200, and I'd rather go with the 421 if I'm gonna spend that kind of money.
I wish the two rental places in my area has a better kick mic selection so I could atleast try out these mics before buying them sound unheard. That's why I'll only go with a seller that offers a refund, not that I want to get a shit sounding mic and have to send it back, but it's a nice security net.
 
The Shure Beta 52 is a good kick mic. However, you have to know that it needs to be placed in the port hole, not inside the kick like you would a D112.

The 441 is great on snare drum.

Going for a vintage 421 is a crap-shoot. The new 421's are just as good, and more consistent. None of the old ones sound alike, and none of them sound like they did when new, so 'better' is in the eye of the beholder.
 
Farview said:
The Shure Beta 52 is a good kick mic. However, you have to know that it needs to be placed in the port hole, not inside the kick like you would a D112.

The 441 is great on snare drum.

Going for a vintage 421 is a crap-shoot. The new 421's are just as good, and more consistent. None of the old ones sound alike, and none of them sound like they did when new, so 'better' is in the eye of the beholder.
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Isn't the B52 on of those pre-EQ'd deals thay accentuate the click?

Mostly everyone ive seen discuss the 421's likes the originals. They say the new ones are brighter, maybe too bright? It is a crap shoot with the old ones tho, especially when u can hear it first. I'm gonna get one that had a refund policy, I atleast wanna try.
 
It's debatable whether the new ones are brighter because the design is different or because they get dull over time, so the old ones are mellower. The bottom line is, the new ones are easier to get, do the same job and are under warrantee. If you have a bunch of 421's, you can pick out which one is best for what instrument, but if you are only going to get one, how would you know if the used one you end up with is one of the better sounding ones or not? What do you have to compare it to?

The 602 was a kick mic that was pre-EQ'd as well. If you don't want that, get a D112.
 
Farview said:
It's debatable whether the new ones are brighter because the design is different or because they get dull over time, so the old ones are mellower.
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Yeah, there's more than one variable although I'm almost certain I read that the 421 II is brighter by design.
I'd need to check but I'm pretty sure the graphs show it to have a boost somewhere up there.

It's true that a lot of people seem to favour older ones. I think maybe that's a part of it, lumping all new 421s in with the 421 II.
It's also true that variation between old mics can be almost unbelievable. I have four 635a microphones that I could identify blind all day long.
 
Farview said:
It's debatable whether the new ones are brighter because the design is different or because they get dull over time, so the old ones are mellower. The bottom line is, the new ones are easier to get, do the same job and are under warrantee. If you have a bunch of 421's, you can pick out which one is best for what instrument, but if you are only going to get one, how would you know if the used one you end up with is one of the better sounding ones or not? What do you have to compare it to?

The e602 was a kick mic that was pre-EQ'd as well. If you don't want that, get a D112.
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All you're points on the vintage 421's are understandable, especially since I've been thinking the same type of stuff. The one thing I got going for me is the refund policy...some are 14 days, others 30. I understand there's no warranty involved, which is always nice, but something in me really wants me to take the chance. The only thing I have to compare the sound to is the YouTube shootouts. Luckily one of the local rental places has one of the newer 421's; I plan on renting that one so I can atleast hear that and also do an A/B with the vintage on I end up buying. I also know what sounds good, so if I don't like the sound I'll just send it back. It'll be worth the return postage, cuz if I don't do this it'll be bugging me forever.

I didn't know the e602 was pre-EQ'd, unless you're referring to the scooped-mid. I owned a D112 when I was younger and found it too boomy for my taste. I was young back then and didn't know nearly as much as I do know about mic placement, mixing (EQ and other effects), just recording in general. That being said, I'm not the only one by a long shot that isn't a fan of the D112. The D12VR is another discussion, but it's WAY expensive. It's like $450, no? The mic must be good just based on the fact that no one ever sells one.
 
What sort of music do you do? That will have some bearing on what a good mic for you will be.

D112 boomy? I always thought they were boxy compared to other kick mics.

When i use the 421 for a kick mic, i always have another mic out front of the kick to catch the sub.
 
Farview said:
What sort of music do you do? That will have some bearing on what a good mic for you will be.

D112 boomy? I always thought they were boxy compared to other kick mics.

When i use the 421 for a kick mic, i always have another mic out front of the kick to catch the sub.
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Maybe I'm getting boomy and boxy confused. I just know I wasn't a big fan of the D112. I play hard/heavy rock. Influences would be Nirvana, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Sabbath, Pentagram, early Bowie, early T. Rex and '77 and UK82 Punk Rock. I'm not trying to copy anyone, these are just favorite bands of mine...I could list bands, but I figured I'd keep it short.

I might rent the D112 (it's only $18/day) when I rent the new model MD-421-II (that's $30/day, but I need to see if I really like it...even though it's said to sound different than the original I figure if I outright dislike it there's no point in buying one of the originals; it can't be that far off). Like I was saying, I was really young when I had that D112, just getting into music, so my opinion was pretty green.

Is it a common thing for people to use a second mic on the kick when using the 421? Does the 421 go on the inside or outside when using two mics? I've read the best spot is in the kick skin hole. My skin doesn't have a hole, so I'll have to make one. However, I'm planning on buying new skins, so I might grab one with a hole already in it. Is the front or back kick skin considered more important? I'd guess it's the front since that's where the beater hit. I just bought this sticker (the brand is DanMar) you put on the front skin where the beater hits. It has a metal insert and sounds pretty bad ass. I've been trying it out with both my felt and plastic beaters. Haven't really made up my mind on which I like better, but the plastic one is definitely more in your face.
 
Those metal danmar things were really popular in the 90s, to get that Pantera type kick sound (using a hard beater). You will end up eqing the crap out of any mic to get any tonal balance with that thing on.

With a d112, i like inside the kick, half way between the beater and rim.

With the beta 52, it should go right inside the port hole in the reso head.

With a 421 i put it in the kick, same position as the d112. But i supplement with another mic outside the kick. Without the outside mic, i would put it right in the hole to get a little more balance between boom and click.

No matter what mic you get, you will need to eq and compress a lot to get the sound you want. Any of the mics will work. One of them might just get you closer to the sound you want than the others.

Dont forget the audix kick mic.
 
Farview said:
Those metal danmar things were really popular in the 90s, to get that Pantera type kick sound (using a hard beater). You will end up eqing the crap out of any mic to get any tonal balance with that thing on.

With a d112, i like inside the kick, half way between the beater and rim.

With the beta 52, it should go right inside the port hole in the reso head.

With a 421 i put it in the kick, same position as the d112. But i supplement with another mic outside the kick. Without the outside mic, i would put it right in the hole to get a little more balance between boom and click.

No matter what mic you get, you will need to eq and compress a lot to get the sound you want. Any of the mics will work. One of them might just get you closer to the sound you want than the others.

Dont forget the audix kick mic.
Click to expand...

Crap. Atleast that Danmar thing was cheap. Your saying it's gonna make things sound more clicky? GUH! If I end up hating it I'll just go with the normal felt deal.
 
Yes, if adds a metallic attack to the kick sound. Since you seem to be shying away from bright sounds, that will be the opposite of what you want.

But there is also a big difference between Alice in Chains and T-Rex's kick sound, so im still no closer to knowing what you are going for.

If you are going for a modern version of what those styles of music, a decent set of heads (i like remo powerstroke II batter head) played with a hard beater. A vent hole in the resonant head.

Any of these kick mics can get you an appropriate sound with eq and compression.
 
I purchased an original Sennheiser E602 a few years ago and since then I have not used a D112 or MD421 on kick drum.
 
JG96 said:
I purchased an original Sennheiser E602 a few years ago and since then I have not used a D112 or MD421 on kick drum.
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No shit. That's a pretty awesome endorsement. That original e602 is my first choice, along with the MD-421-U, it's just impossible to find a used one. What version of the 421 do you have? Did you also find the need to use a second mic on the kick when using the 421? Do you just use the e602 on it's own? It seems like you have a decent mic locker, so I'm guessing you use something on the outside just cuz you can and it makes for a more well rounded sound. However, does it work just fine one it's own? Is the best placement for it on the inside?
 
Farview said:
Yes, if adds a metallic attack to the kick sound. Since you seem to be shying away from bright sounds, that will be the opposite of what you want.

But there is also a big difference between Alice in Chains and T-Rex's kick sound, so im still no closer to knowing what you are going for.

If you are going for a modern version of what those styles of music, a decent set of heads (i like remo powerstroke II batter head) played with a hard beater. A vent hole in the resonant head.

Any of these kick mics can get you an appropriate sound with eq and compression.
Click to expand...

Ya, I've realized for a while now that no matter how good of a mic you use, the source has to sound great on it's own, i.e. good new skins for the drums. I forget if I mentioned it hear, but i went with a recommendation from a 20+ year player from a drum tuning YouTube video that likes the Evans G2 Coated 2-Ply 7mil skins; I think he mentioned that he liked them best on the toms. I went ahead and just bought one, to make sure I dug it. I was gonna put it on my snare top originally (that and my floor tom top are my only skins that need to be replaced). Then I watched a couple snare skin shootout videos, and although the G2 I bought wasn't included in either (which kind of makes me think it isn't a top snare skin), I really liked the REMO Ambassador. My Pearl Export Series kit was re-skinned probably 5-6 years ago, but it was in storage for 95% of that time, so although old, the skins are basically brand new. Is it possible for them to go bad just sitting around dormant for that long? All I know about them is that they are clear Evans. They'll sound great once they're tuned up properly, but I've never really done a drum tuning before. I know the basic technique(s), but I haven't tried it out yet. Mainly because a drummer friend of mine said he'd do it for free when he's around. He hasn't been around tho, which isn't really a shocker if u knew this kid. I've basically given up on him ever coming by, so I'm gonna try it myself. It'll be a good learning experience. I need to watch a kick skin shootout know to figure out what I want for that. Are both sides equally important, or is the front one more accountable for the sound? I just don't have the money to replace them all, and they really don't need to be replaced anyways. I'm just gonna do the important ones, Snare, Kick and the Floor Tom top that's kinda taken a beating.
Your definitely right about that Danmar purchase not being the brightest move on my part. For whatever reason I've been more interested in trying out the D112 again. Do you if there's a big sound difference between the original and the new MKII model? I've also noticed that the old ones come in two different color patterns. They're the same mic, just cosmetically differentlly, right? I'm thinking that maybe the Danmar will help with the boomy/boxy sound of the D112. Or maybe I'm just hoping, but it seems like it might even things out.
 
Different heads give you different sounds. Which head will be the best choice will depend on the sound you are going for and the way you play. Single ply heads are very resonant, but they don't take much abuse. If you are a basher, you will be replacing them often.

All of the head companies make good heads. It's up to you to find the heads that give you the sound you want and work with your playing style.

The danmar pad won't get rid of the boxyness, it will just add an annoying TICK on every hit. If you are one of those guys that rests the beater on the skin between hits, that will now make noise. With a ton of EQ and compression, you might get lucky and end up with a Pantera kick sound.

The boxyness of the D112 comes from the fact that it was designed to capture upright bass. The lower mids are essential for that instrument. To get an old school kick sound (late 70's, early 80's) , you turn down the 400hz and add 1k if the attack needs help. Late 80's early 90's kick sound is the same, but the attack moved up to around 3k.

I don't know about the new d112's. The last ones I owned were from the 90's.

The reason I used an outside mic with the D112 was so I could shape the low end better. You can the low end to the 421 with EQ, but the beauty of the mic is the smoothness in the upper midrange and high end and the lack of nasally midrange. So the 421 is really good at getting the mid and high ranges of the kick, so that's what I used it for. I would use something else to capture the round low end.

The more important head on the kick is the batter head. The resonant head (which is usually called the front head, since it is at the front of the kit) is there to add resonance and help muffle the batter head. Some people tune the batter head for the attack and tune the reso head for the note. Some people kind of slack out the reso head, so it just stops the kick note while adding a low 'bump'. Again, that depends on what sort of sound you are going for and what type of player you are. If you are doing a lot of fast runs, you need the kick to be very short. If it rings for a half second, when you do double bass runs, it will just turn into an undefined wash of low end.

I understand that you don't necessarily want to sound like anyone else, but if you could point out what sort of kick sound you want, you could get a much more specific answer as to head choice, mic choice and tuning you need to get in that ballpark.
 
Farview said:
Different heads give you different sounds. Which head will be the best choice will depend on the sound you are going for and the way you play. Single ply heads are very resonant, but they don't take much abuse. If you are a basher, you will be replacing them often.

All of the head companies make good heads. It's up to you to find the heads that give you the sound you want and work with your playing style.

The danmar pad won't get rid of the boxyness, it will just add an annoying TICK on every hit. If you are one of those guys that rests the beater on the skin between hits, that will now make noise. With a ton of EQ and compression, you might get lucky and end up with a Pantera kick sound.

The boxyness of the D112 comes from the fact that it was designed to capture upright bass. The lower mids are essential for that instrument. To get an old school kick sound (late 70's, early 80's) , you turn down the 400hz and add 1k if the attack needs help. Late 80's early 90's kick sound is the same, but the attack moved up to around 3k.

I don't know about the new d112's. The last ones I owned were from the 90's.

The reason I used an outside mic with the D112 was so I could shape the low end better. You can the low end to the 421 with EQ, but the beauty of the mic is the smoothness in the upper midrange and high end and the lack of nasally midrange. So the 421 is really good at getting the mid and high ranges of the kick, so that's what I used it for. I would use something else to capture the round low end.

The more important head on the kick is the batter head. The resonant head (which is usually called the front head, since it is at the front of the kit) is there to add resonance and help muffle the batter head. Some people tune the batter head for the attack and tune the reso head for the note. Some people kind of slack out the reso head, so it just stops the kick note while adding a low 'bump'. Again, that depends on what sort of sound you are going for and what type of player you are. If you are doing a lot of fast runs, you need the kick to be very short. If it rings for a half second, when you do double bass runs, it will just turn into an undefined wash of low end.

I understand that you don't necessarily want to sound like anyone else, but if you could point out what sort of kick sound you want, you could get a much more specific answer as to head choice, mic choice and tuning you need to get in that ballpark.
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GUH! I gotta ditch that Danmar thing, I'll give it a chance tho, but it sounds lame as all shit. The batter head is the one the beater hits? I've been calling that the front skin cuz it's in-front of me when I'm playing. Sorry if that's a dumb question.
 
Yes the batter head is the one you hit. The resonant head is the feont head, the one in front of the kit.

If you put the danmar pad on, you wont be able to take it off. 8f you do get it off without tearing a hole in the head, there will be sticky glue residue right where the beater hits. Either way, you just wasted the head.
 
Farview said:
Yes the batter head is the one you hit. The resonant head is the feont head, the one in front of the kit.

If you put the danmar pad on, you wont be able to take it off. 8f you do get it off without tearing a hole in the head, there will be sticky glue residue right where the beater hits. Either way, you just wasted the head.
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Haha! I kinda figured as much. Hoping I have a change of heart and end up liking the thing. Either way, I was planning on replacing that batter head with a 2ply, I've had one before and liked it. You should hear that Danmar thing with the plastic beater I found; it's beyond abrasive. It's super powerful sounding tho, and that's pre-tuning. Even if I ditch it, which I most likely will, I think I've gotten $12 of laughs off the thing!
 
It was meant to be used with a hard beater.

It came from the days where you wanted a sharp attack, but couldnt add 20db of high shelf without getting a ton of tape hiss. This isnt a problem with digital, so they fell out of favor in the late 90s.
 
Farview said:
Yes the batter head is the one you hit. The resonant head is the feont head, the one in front of the kit.

If you put the danmar pad on, you wont be able to take it off. 8f you do get it off without tearing a hole in the head, there will be sticky glue residue right where the beater hits. Either way, you just wasted the head.
Click to expand...

Nah, thing peeled right off.
 
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