Mics for classical grand piano...

greengyozaman

New member
Hi folks,

I want to record a 9-foot Steinway grand in a large room with good acoustic.

I have:

1) Matched pair of SE Electronics SE4400a
2) Matched pair of Rode NT55
3) Matched pair of AKG C214
4) Non-matched pair of AKG Perception 420
5) Non-matched pair of Shure PG81

Recorder: Zoom R24, Zoom H4n
Preamp: Focusrite Octopre Mk II

Your opinions please on how many mics and which ones to use.

Thanks guys.
 
I would go with the matched pair of sE 4400a and mess around with the polar patterns till you come up with a capture that you are satisfied with. ;)
 
If you can record a load of tracks, I would put up SE4400a's and pair of NT55''s and a pair of C214's, and decide later during mix down. If not it will probably be a shoot out between the SE4400's and the C214's.

Funny enough, slightly off topic, Last night I did some pre-production for a classical / flamenco guitar recording coming up later in the year so the artist could pick which guitar to use on which piece, so I took the opportunity to try out a gang of mics and positions at the same time. When listening back to the samples of different pieces, different mics sounded good on different pieces and sometimes a blend of different mics gave a great sound depending on the speed and key of the piece. I have decided to record the project with at least 4 different mics (to separate tracks) at the same time so we can choose later.

Cheers
Alan.
 
My initial snarky response would be to say, "Anything but the PG81 pair...." I've never been too happy with the sound from the PG81 or SM81, personally. YMMV.
 
If you can record a load of tracks, I would put up SE4400a's and pair of NT55''s and a pair of C214's, and decide later during mix down. If not it will probably be a shoot out between the SE4400's and the C214's.

Funny enough, slightly off topic, Last night I did some pre-production for a classical / flamenco guitar recording coming up later in the year so the artist could pick which guitar to use on which piece, so I took the opportunity to try out a gang of mics and positions at the same time. When listening back to the samples of different pieces, different mics sounded good on different pieces and sometimes a blend of different mics gave a great sound depending on the speed and key of the piece. I have decided to record the project with at least 4 different mics (to separate tracks) at the same time so we can choose later.

Cheers
Alan.



Hey Alan did something similar just the other night and with the same out come.
In fact one piece was wanted to sound dissonant so used the omni capsule of a Michael Joly Modified Oktava MK-012 set away from the source a bit and it was perfect for what the artist wanted.
 
Hi folks,

I want to record a 9-foot Steinway grand in a large room with good acoustic.

I have:

1) Matched pair of SE Electronics SE4400a
2) Matched pair of Rode NT55
3) Matched pair of AKG C214
4) Non-matched pair of AKG Perception 420
5) Non-matched pair of Shure PG81

Recorder: Zoom R24, Zoom H4n
Preamp: Focusrite Octopre Mk II

Your opinions please on how many mics and which ones to use.

Thanks guys.


Recording Steinway Concert Grands is what I do all the time.

There is only one pair of mics in your list that I would use for the job - and that is the Røde NT-55 with the omni heads (NB: do NOT use the cardioid heads for this).

My starting point is have the two omni mics on a stereo bar about 20cm apart at about head height and about 2 metres from the piano.

This will vary as to the music, the pianist, the piano and the room - but this is where I start and listen to what they sound like there. It's also good to let the pianist play and you go and listen yourself - listen carefully and move around the piano and at various distances. Where is sounds best with your ears is probably the best place to put the mics.

Those Røde omni heads are exceptionally good and equal to much more expensive mics.

Good luck, I hope it goes well.
 
Yes, the sE may be the best option there.

No, definitely not.

For a classical concert grand in a good room the Røde NT-55 with the omni heads is, by a long way, the best option.

the sE may be fine for Jazz piano closed mic'ed, but I would definitely not use them for classical in a good room.

You need a pure pressure omni - if you use a directional mic. you will lose the bottom end of the piano. And a switchable pattern set to omni is not as good as a pure omni mic.

From his list the Røde NT-55 is by far the best option.

It's the only one from his list I would use.
 
Your opinions please on how many mics and which ones to use.

Oops - I answered the "which ones" question, but not the "how many".

The answer is two - just a single stereo pair.

You get the correct balance between the piano and the room by the distance you place the mics from the piano - as I said above, two metres is a good starting point.

I have recorded loads of piano CDs and virtually all of them have been done with just a single pair of small diaphragm condenser omnis. Only on the last one did I put up a Soundfield room mic. as well - and that was because the paying customer wanted it, rather than it actually being needed.
 
Oops - I answered the "which ones" question, but not the "how many".

The answer is two - just a single stereo pair.

You get the correct balance between the piano and the room by the distance you place the mics from the piano - as I said above, two metres is a good starting point.

I have recorded loads of piano CDs and virtually all of them have been done with just a single pair of small diaphragm condenser omnis. Only on the last one did I put up a Soundfield room mic. as well - and that was because the paying customer wanted it, rather than it actually being needed.



Would the sE4400a's in omni do the trick as well John? This is what I was getting at.
 
Thanks all for the valuable suggestiuons here.

To moresound - John previously mentioned that the switchable pattern mic set to omni may not be as good as a pure pressure omni mic. Judging from the sound samples in SOS article using NT-55s - the mics are very good when set up appropriately:

Piano Recording

I'll book a room with Steinway D somewhere and practice using the Rode pair via Octopre preamp to record them on H4n at 96kHz/24-bit.

I don't regret getting all the mics except PG81s - eBay job shortly. Rode seems a very good value, and I found the SE4400a at clearance sale this week and paid £500 for the pair (RRP is twice that)... I'll probably use both the AKG pairs when recording chamber choir or intrumental ensemble in addition to the Rode and SE4400a...
 
Would the sE4400a's in omni do the trick as well John? This is what I was getting at.

Sort of, but nowhere near as good as the Røde NT-55 with the omni heads would.

When I was talking to Tony Faulkner recently (top classical recording engineer) he actually rated the NT 55 omnis up with Schoeps in quality.

Although, personally, I would use Sennheiser MKH 20s or 8020s or Neumann 131s - of the mics on the OP's list, the Røde NT-55 with the omni heads is by far the best option for what he says he wants to do.
 
Sort of, but nowhere near as good as the Røde NT-55 with the omni heads would.

When I was talking to Tony Faulkner recently (top classical recording engineer) he actually rated the NT 55 omnis up with Schoeps in quality.

Although, personally, I would use Sennheiser MKH 20s or 8020s or Neumann 131s - of the mics on the OP's list, the Røde NT-55 with the omni heads is by far the best option for what he says he wants to do.



Now John is the only difference between the Rodes NT55 and NT5 the high pass filter and attenuation/pad switches?

That is in cardioid-condenser for I don't believe that the NT5 can switch out capsules.
 
Now John is the only difference between the Rodes NT55 and NT5 the high pass filter and attenuation/pad switches?

That is in cardioid-condenser for I don't believe that the NT5 can switch out capsules.

I'm not sure - the 55 may have different electronics.

But you can buy the omni heads on their own and use them on the NT-5 if you want.
 
Back when I was working in a professional studio, I remember using C414's successfully on piano. I would think the 214s would work just as well. The thing to be aware of with those mics is that, while they don't sound very impressive solo'd on their own, they seem to fit well into a mix.

We also sometimes used omni SDC's on piano. One trick I learned when using these with grand pianos is to put the head of the mic right up against the lid of the piano, but not actually touching it. What this does is, essentially, turn your omni mics into PZM mics. A boundary mic is, after all, simply a small diameter omni capsule put close to a boundary, which converts it from omni mode to hemispherical mode. The advantage of doing this is that it eliminates potential problems with comb filtering. When you have an omni mic inside the lid of a piano, they'll pick up the direct sound from the strings AND the sound bouncing back off of the lid. This makes sure that none of this is going on, so there is no comb filtering going on.
 
The few times I have mic'ed up a Stienway 9 foot grand successfully we used a spaced pair of u87's about 1.5 feet above the strings on either side. Nothing fancy. That gave me a nice close sound without too much room (we were in a very large room). This worked well for the pop mix we were doing at the time.

When I used that same piano in the same room to capture a more realistic sound from a listeners prospective we used a pair of c414's about mid piano just outside the opening in Mid Side configuration. This gave us a AWESOME sound which i prefer. Very natural and easy to control room sound by bringing in or out the mid side. This is great for making a chorus wider sounding.

If it were me with your microphone selection I would try the SE4400a pair in MS. I would use the c214 spaced pair as a alternative method. If you have the luxury, do all 4 mics and a/b both! IMO that piano would be better suited for LDC over SDC. YMMV!
 
Back when I was working in a professional studio, I remember using C414's successfully on piano. I would think the 214s would work just as well. The thing to be aware of with those mics is that, while they don't sound very impressive solo'd on their own, they seem to fit well into a mix.

We also sometimes used omni SDC's on piano. One trick I learned when using these with grand pianos is to put the head of the mic right up against the lid of the piano, but not actually touching it. What this does is, essentially, turn your omni mics into PZM mics. A boundary mic is, after all, simply a small diameter omni capsule put close to a boundary, which converts it from omni mode to hemispherical mode. The advantage of doing this is that it eliminates potential problems with comb filtering. When you have an omni mic inside the lid of a piano, they'll pick up the direct sound from the strings AND the sound bouncing back off of the lid. This makes sure that none of this is going on, so there is no comb filtering going on.

Interesting, but the OP said he was recording a concert grand in a good room.

These are studio techniques that can be good in a studio, but I would not use them for a recital recording in a good room. These techniques are there to remove the room and you actually want to use the room.
 
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