Which mic for upright bass?

Han

New member
Micing an upright bass is difficult, I’ve been recording many acoustic (jazz)bands and the upright can be a pain in the ass. I do have a 12 m2 vocal booth and if you can manage the bassplayer to play separated from the rest of the band, all you have to do is put a nice mic with a wide cardioid pattern in front of the instrument and you’re done.

But people hate that and prefer to play with the band in one room. Do you know Norah Jones’ first album ‘Come away with me’? The third song begins with an upright bass and that’s the sound I like, as if the man is standing there in front of you.

Lately I’ve been recording with an acoustic band, guitars, flutes, violin, percussion, bagpipes (loud!!) and upright, a female and very stubbern player. I’ve put a Neumann M149 in fig of 8 in front of the bass and put a couple of gobo’s around her. Asked her to keep a distance of one foot, which she thinks is a yard or so. I’ve asked her five or six times and that must be enough I think.

Yesterday she came and booked a new session with another (klezmer) band and I was thinking about how to record her this time. A mic wrapped in foam seems to be the only way to avoid the bleed of the other instruments to go excessive.

A friend of mine comes to rehearse every now and then with his dixieland band and he’s the upright bassplayer, so I went to the studio and experimented with a number of mics wrapped in foam in the bridge of the bass. All mics were wrapped in foam and pointing upwards. Here are the results:

Beyer M88, very balanced sound, nice low end, much detail and a reasonable amount of bleed from the horns, banjo, and drums. And this bleed is sounding nice so that can’t be a big problem

Beyer M69, this prooves that the M88 is a much better mic, this mic doesn’t sound as good in this application.

Beyer M201, not good, a great mic but not in this application, bleed doesn’t sound nice and so does the upright.

Beyer M260 ribbon, a nice and balanced sound, less low end and the bleed sounds a little nasal, but a very usable sound.

Shure SM57, in one word: ugly.

Sennheiser MD421, boomy sound with lots of peaks and lots of bleed, unusable.

Sennheiser MD441, a great mic, but sucks on this application, even worse than the 421.

AKG D90S, el cheapo dynamic mic, but not bad at all, even better than the Beyer M69.

Audio Technica AT 832, one of the cheapest dynamic mics from the eighties, $25 mic and this mic beats the MD421 and 441. A decent sound, pretty balanced, lots of lows and a reasonable amount of bleed. Funny that the cheapest mic sounds better than the most expensive dynamic.

MXL V77S, a side adressed mic which is a huge benefit, fits very good in the foam. I pointed the front in an angle towards the F-hole on the G string side. A very good and balanced sound, lots of low end so you beter use a high pass filter. Bleed sounds wonderful, so this is the mic I’m going to use for the lady upright player.

MXL V69M, a very good sound too, but the bleed sounds more colored than the 77 and this mic can get quite warm so I presume that wrapped in foam it will get hot.

I have forgotten to try a SP B1 but I’ll do that next week.

The Neumann M149 is too big, so it doesn’t fit in the bridge.:D

Cheers, Han
 
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wow Han, thanks for the thorough recap! ;-) i don't record much upright bass, but it's great to know that one of the mics in my meager collection rose to the top of your testing.

and while one should never take someone else's findings as "gospel", it's always great to have a starting point from which to work.


cheers,
wade
 
Sticking the mic under the tailpiece might be useful for live amplification, but I would never record the bass this way. You will not get the natural sound of the instrument like this.

I am blessed with two large rooms in which to record. I generally put the bass in the other room or at the opposite end of the room from where the other musicians are playing. I put the mic about a yard away from the bass, oriented to between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard.

Of my mics, I most often use an AEA R84. My second choice would be an Oktava MK012 or Rode NT5. Of course, basses and their players do vary widely in their sound, so mic choice and placement are variable.

I have recorded an album which includes a lot of klezmer. One of the best cuts we did was recorded all together, in mono, with one AEA R44C, and we just moved everyone around until things balanced out. You might want to try an approach like this with a stereo pair...
 
I record a lot of bluegrass which 99% of the time requires upright (doghouse) bass... I've tried a lot of different mic placements and the one that I use is:

I use 2 large condenser mics. In my case 2 Rode K2's... I've also recently tried a matched pair of Rode NT5's and they work really well too...

1. I put one of them above the "F Hole" approximately 5 inches, and away approximately 12", beside the bottom end of the fingerboard, opposite the side the player stands on.

2. The other mic I place behind the bass at a distance of about 12" and aim it where the sound post of the bass meets the back. This gives a really rich 'wood' sound. I also invert the polarity on this one...

I'll agree that you don't want to try the mic wrapped in foam under the tailpiece... I don't even like this for live sound! A lot of people at festivals I go to use it, but it is way too boomy for my taste... I've also tried different pickup systems for upright bass and all of them seem to be way too noisey for recording... Maybe Ok for live, but I've not found one that I liked for recording yet...
 
I sat in on about half of an all day recording session the local Bluegrass Club did back last summer.. About 16 groups with about 30 minutes each to setup and laydown a live track.

Was done in a medium size church auditorium with 40 - 50 foot ceilings and beautiful reverb.

Outside of the one guy that had a clip-on pickup on the bridge, every bass that was recorded was done with the same mic that was being used for the vocals. Just wrapped it in foam and stuffed it under the strings, behind the bridge and facing into the corner where the bridge and the face meet.

Don't know if the guy doing the recording actually knew what he was doing, or if that was just what he knew how to do. The finished result on CD turned out pretty good though. Each track was at least as good as the musicians that were on it.

This was done in a pretty much live setting, no electirc, no monitors... Most of these folks are used to sitting/standing in a jam circle and use the bass to keep time. Most of the time they ended up with the bass player standing in front of the group and facing them so everyone could hear. Guess this would put a bit of the bass back through every other live mic in the room. Depending on the group that could have been 4 extra mics to 12 extras, spread across a 25 foot area picking up the bass. You'd think you'd end up with a slight delay across the tracks of "thumpthumpthump"

Something else I noticed there.. When he was getting a sound level check on each insturment and vocal, he kept telling everyone to step up to the mic. By the time they were halfway through each song about half of the group would be playing several feet back from their respective mic. I've noticed since then, the ones that were stepping back are some of the more timid folks.. They tend to be less comfortable with their playing/singing, even though some of them are pretty good, they don't think they are all they should be, so they stand back a bit and let someone else take the lead or break. May be that your stubborn bass player just isn't as comfortable as she should be. You may either have to back her up to a wall where she can't back away from the mic or strap in onto her bass where she can't get away from it.

--
Rob
 
mshilarious said:
When you say in the bridge, do you mean under the tailpiece :confused:

No, there's a big hole in the center of the bridge, for live applications this hole is often used to put a mic in, wrapped in foam, facing the fingerboard.
 
Zetajazz44 said:
1. I put one of them above the "F Hole" approximately 5 inches, and away approximately 12", beside the bottom end of the fingerboard, opposite the side the player stands on.

2. The other mic I place behind the bass at a distance of about 12" and aim it where the sound post of the bass meets the back. This gives a really rich 'wood' sound. I also invert the polarity on this one...
I notice you start with both mics about equal distance out -a good shot a being in good phase, but surprised you'd flip polarity on one. Is that mostly affecting the low end?
Thanks.
Wayne
 
Han said:
Beyer M88, very balanced sound, nice low end, much detail and a reasonable amount of bleed from the horns, banjo, and drums. And this bleed is sounding nice so that can’t be a big problem

Beyer M69, this prooves that the M88 is a much better mic, this mic doesn’t sound as good in this application.

Beyer M201, not good, a great mic but not in this application, bleed doesn’t sound nice and so does the upright.

Beyer M260 ribbon, a nice and balanced sound, less low end and the bleed sounds a little nasal, but a very usable sound.

Shure SM57, in one word: ugly.

Sennheiser MD421, boomy sound with lots of peaks and lots of bleed, unusable.

Sennheiser MD441, a great mic, but sucks on this application, even worse than the 421.

AKG D90S, el cheapo dynamic mic, but not bad at all, even better than the Beyer M69.

Han, this is great info for me and great timing. I am struggling right now to get a decent sound out of my bass with usable bleed, or no bleed. I started a thread a couple weeks ago:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=181303

I bought an Earthworks TC20 omni, figuring that I could get that sucker right up near the bass to increase the balance of bass vs. bleed without proximity effect, and have what does bleed be usable.

The sound of the TC20 for bass is killer, at least for my taste. It is my first omni, and I have to say I really like how the low end is accurate, not boomy - no matter where I put the mic. The bass sound in my head is Jazz bassist Scott LaFaro on the Bill Evans trio at the Village Vanguard sessions ("Waltz For Debby" and "Sunday at the Village Vanguard"). I have a great bass with amazing tone; and this mic comes closest to that sound. However, the bleed is still very loud. The bleed is more usable than any cardioid condenser I've tried, but still not what I have in mind.

I was thinking of buying an RE20, but you have me thinking about the M88. Do you have an RE20 you can try? I would be grateful if you did and could could compare it to the M88. The RE20 is supposed to have good off-axis response, the M88 is supposed to a have a really tight pattern.

We'll keep searching... :)
 
Leddy, I was wondering if you considered or might have tried one of the directional Earth's?
(QTC-1's here. It's a wonderfull thing... :)
Wayne
 
@Leddy

I don't have a RE20 so I can't help you there. The problem is spill/bleed I always have a lot of bleed on the bass mic. I've tried the MD421 on a stand, pointed at the upright and that's not bad. The old AKG D12 is very decent on upright.

The problem is when you wrap them in foam and put them in the bridge so the mic is very close to the body of the upright, then suddenly the MD421 sucks and the D12 is impossible for this way of micing.

I do have an ECM8000 but I didn't like it on upright. The M149 is most used for this instrument since it has 9 patterns from omni to fig 8.

I will try the SP B1, which did very good a while ago on upright, at some 1' from the bass, pointed between the bridge and the fingerboard.

The M88 though really surprised me, the bleed sounds quite decent. This mic also sounds very good when pointed at the strings, together with a LDC you'll get much of crystal clear stringsound when the player uses a bow.

Anyway, one has always get to deal with the bleed, so it'll better sound good so you don't need any room mics. :D
 
mixsit said:
Leddy, I was wondering if you considered or might have tried one of the directional Earth's?
(QTC-1's here. It's a wonderfull thing... :)
Wayne

I would like to have; that was partially a money thing. If memory serves, the directional QTC-1 was around $800-900? I got the TC20 for $369. Also, the thought was to try an omni to get away from proximity effect. That's why the RE20 seems like the next step, it supposedly has limited proximity effect. :)
 
Oops. I didn't neam to say QTC' is directional, they're just up in cost because ther're their quiet/sensitive ones. I think the directional ones run around $400 or so. But they're 'cards' do have a built in low roll off as I understand that comes in 'flat if your less than about 6" or so.
Wayne
 
Han said:
No, there's a big hole in the center of the bridge, for live applications this hole is often used to put a mic in, wrapped in foam, facing the fingerboard.

I only rented an upright for a while (hope to buy one someday), but I wouldn't risk hanging a mic from the bridge. The risk of collapse, even if small, just isn't worth it.

This quote also confuses me:

Crash said:
Just wrapped it in foam and stuffed it under the strings, behind the bridge and facing into the corner where the bridge and the face meet.

The bridge and soundboard meet in a corner :confused:
 
mixsit said:
I notice you start with both mics about equal distance out -a good shot a being in good phase, but surprised you'd flip polarity on one. Is that mostly affecting the low end?
Thanks.
Wayne

Actually a few years back I took this advice from another guy on another board... I first tried it without the fliped polarity and I noticed a 'rumble' in the bottom end... Sounded muddy to me... I flipped the polarity on my pre, and 'Roota voota zoot!' I was left with this punchy, woody sound I'd been wanting...

BUT, sound... It's like women... One mans treasure is another man's trash and vise-versa... I liked the sound, the bass player liked it, the band liked it, so I've been doing it that way ever since...
 
Zetajazz44 said:
Actually a few years back I took this advice from another guy on another board... I first tried it without the fliped polarity and I noticed a 'rumble' in the bottom end... Sounded muddy to me... I flipped the polarity on my pre, and 'Roota voota zoot!' I was left with this punchy, woody sound I'd been wanting...

I haven't tried it, but it makes sense to me. In that respect the front and back of a bass is analogous to a snare drum.
 
mshilarious said:
This quote also confuses me:


The bridge and soundboard meet in a corner :confused:

Yeah they're scared of getting together out in the open.. Afraid the strings will talk and let the whole affair out in the open..

--
Rob
 
I have a pair of KM184s and have used one strung between the legs of the bridge - it worked OK for low volume gigs, but at higher levels was prone to feedback. I also have a KM185 which I also used in a similar manner - this worked better, but still tends to feed back at high levels.

One of the easiest ways to mic a double-bass is to put the mic in a foam block behind the tail-piece. You need a directional mic, and I've had quite good results using this technique.

The foam mount behind the tail-piece, was just a convenient way of mounting the mic quickly, as I found that setting up and adjusting the rubber-bands was too fiddly in a live situation, especially if the lights were dimmed. The KM185 would also work very well on a stand with the mic pointing at the bridge, but then I'd have to be constantly aware of keeping the bass in the "sweet-spot", especially with a hypercardioid, so it's much easier to have the mic mounted on the bass (one disadvantage of having it pointing up is that it tends to pick up any noises or comments I might make, although I tend not be a "grunter"…)

I've also played at gigs where there's been a sound system, and I found that using just the mic through the board, so that the bass was amplified through the main system, and not bothering with my stage amp - that seemed to work extremely well - people commented on how nice the bass sounded, and everyone in the band could hear it clearly even though I wasn't using a stage amp.

I have DPA 4061 which is a fabulous little mic - I Velcro™ mine behind the fingerboard of the bass - the problem with the 4061 is that it's an omni, and picks up everything, so it's hardly the mic of choice for a live gig, however in a studio where the acoustic isolation can be controlled, it is a great mic, and is tiny.

Here's a link to some recordings I made where the double-bass was being recorded using a Neumann KM185 in a foam-block behind the tailpiece.

Here are some pics of the foam-block and rubber-band technique, and also of an ATM-35 which I use occasionally.

- Wil
 

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mshilarious said:
I haven't tried it, but it makes sense to me. In that respect the front and back of a bass is analogous to a snare drum.
Yeah and I was just imagining (only a complete guess here) just the opposite, that a string bass is sort of radiating in all directions, and this might actually be putting it more out of phase -for it to have the effect of trimming the low end.
Hell, it's just about as likely to be somewhere in between any way. ;)
Wayne
 
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