I think I have the wrong mic!

L

LmnLm3

New member
So I used to have an MXL V63m that I put into an ART tube mp. This was not terrible. Ended up being used as a gaming mic for online gaming mostly...

Anyway, sold that stuff to get something different (not sure why)

Moving on.

Got a steal of a deal on an EV PL84 which is a condenser and looks like an SM58 kind of. So live stage condenser? Is this different from an SDC? Can I use it for closeup acoustic stuff like a regular SDC?

ALSO

Need an LDC or Ribbon (not sure which) for Vocals, Ukulele, and CELLO. My voice has the same range and timbre as cello, so I'm hoping that one mic can do both, and uke is so easy I could probably record it with a free mic and be happy.

Looking for something warm, not sterile (hence the thinking of ribbons), but versatile. I want something that I won't outgrow so soon, but can afford right now.

I want that perfect holy grail mic for cheap as cheap. Any thoughts?

Was looking at AT2020 and such, but I'm thinking it might be too bright.... Do I just use a preamp and post production to shape it to where I want it? Like amp modelers? Or do I need to spend $200 to get something worth having?

If the SM57 is the standard for dynamics and the RE20 is the "big brother" of sorts, what are their equivalents in condensers?
 
LmnLm3 said:
I want that perfect holy grail mic for cheap as cheap. Any thoughts?
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I think you're overthinking things and maybe a bit confused by a lot of hype out there about what mics and preamps and post gizmos do.

Thought: I want to buy a guitar that will make me sound like Hendrix. A world class instrument that I will not outgrow. For less than a hundred bucks. Any ideas?
 
I was being silly with that line that you quoted - sorry for that. Didn't mean to sound like a moron.

But really, I am looking for suggestions for something in the range of the budget studio LDCs ($100 give or take) and looking for something warmer than the AT2020 or MXL 990 I hear they're very bright and my instruments (and voice) can be a bit dark in tone, so I'd like to dress to match so to speak...

If I use a clean signal from an AT2020 and it's too bright, will amp modeling or eq/compression/etc do what I need it to do? because the price is pretty amazing at the moment...

Or should I go with something like an R144 ribbon or something like that?
 
LmnLm3 said:
So..
Got a steal of a deal on an EV PL84 ...
...Can I use it for closeup acoustic stuff like a regular SDC?
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It probably is a SDC.
Yes. You're clear, full authorization.


:D

the one with the big battery right?
Seems it had a fairly extended top end for a stage mic IIRC (actually haven't heard one in a while..
 
If I use a clean signal from an AT2020 and it's too bright, will amp modeling or eq/compression/etc do what I need it to do? because the price is pretty amazing at the moment...

Or should I go with something like an R144 ribbon or something like that?
Click to expand...
A lot of the ribbons tilt down some relative to the mids. Kind of reverse of the various rise' styles.
But yes either can be corrected somewhat.
 
The EV PL84 is a handheld condenser. It is intended for vocals, but it will do good service as a general purpose instrument mike.
 
I have an EV PL84S that is nicely detailed on vox for live or scratch trax. I also used for a drum overhead on a particularly windy outdoor gig and it was quite good at that too. Also used it as a bass drum mic for a light footed jazz drummer since my usual suspects didn't work.
 
so if I only have 3 mics, and one is a 57 and one is the PL84 (which I couldn't find ANY reviews online for... suspicious...) then the AT2020 would round out my little solo studio? Or is it a 'ymmv' type of thing where I might be better off with a V67g or a perception 120...?

From what I read the 2020 has a "medium" diameter diaphragm (16mm?) as opposed to the (32mm?) in the V67 and similar. So faster transients? I'm not sure I need that, but then again I don't have a collection to chose from so I'm hoping for something that will be generally flat and well rounded.

Basically I'm looking for the '57' of the condenser world (or the knockoff versions of the 're20' of the condenser world).

I haven't used the PL84 yet, and with all you guys are saying I'm now excited to plug it in!
 
If you're worried about a mic being 'too bright' then the majority of cheap small/medium diaphragm condensers are going to be poison to you.

Many of them are hyped in the high end, especially mics like mxl990 etc.

If you want something a little more neutral at a good price I'd recommend an oktava mk219 or mk319 wholeheartedly.

People describe them as dark but I don't think that's fair. They're just not hyped in the highs.


I'm not sure that there is a 57 of the condenser world for that reason.
There are probably as many great cheap dynamic mics as there are hyped 'nasty' cheap condensers.
 
I even like the look of the MK-219 haha - it's out of my budget at the moment though. I think that will be the next mic I add to my setup. I wonder if I would be ok with just the 57 and PL84 for a while... hrm...

In all honesty, since I don't have a sound booth, what could I really do with a 2020 or other LDC that I couldn't get done without it? (besides room mic - and the room isn't that great... and no field recording in my near future...)
 
You'd probably be better off saving up and buying something later on when you know exactly what you have/need.

Search booth on the forums. There's a lot of advice about these on here.
 
I don't think I have room for a booth... does that mean I shouldn't want a serious LDC? I guess I figured that because most of the sound of a cello is realized at around 1 meter from the bridge (not at the f hole like most stage engineers try to tell me...) that a condenser is the way to go at that distance - never used a 57 from a meter away from anything! Seems like a bad idea.

I need to get the rest of my gear up and running and experiment to see what the limits are of my PL84, and see how it is with my voice. And since I'm shopping for budget priced mics, it's not like I can rent them to see which match my instrument and voice...

though if I buy from amazon I can buy 5 and return 4... they don't mind stuff like that, it's not like I'm going to put it in my mouth...
If I found someone with a collection or some way to compare a few, which would I look at if not the 2020, P120, v67g, v63m? The studio projects b1 never really appealed to me, not sure why...

Or should I go buy a used 219? Not sure what warranty or return policy is like on a new one anyway... used they seem to be just over 100...
 
Well, like I say, If you're trying to avoid a mic being too bright, it's mk219 all the way for me.
That's personal experience. I'm sure there are plenty of others that I don't know about.

I have a reasonable collection now, and if someone said i had to record cello and vocal, and could bring one mic, It'd be the mk219.

I suggested a search on booths for a reason though. Take a look; You'll be overwhelmed with thread after thread after thread of

"i want to build a booth"
"Don't build a booth"

The general consensus is that a well treated room is always better than a small dampened booth.
 
LmnLm3 said:
I don't think I have room for a booth
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You don't need one. For cello, the bigger the room the better.


LmnLm3 said:
I guess I figured that because most of the sound of a cello is realized at around 1 meter from the bridge (not at the f hole like most stage engineers try to tell me...) that a condenser is the way to go at that distance
Click to expand...

Stage engineers, in addition to dealing with the quality of sound, have also to deal with managing the sound on stage, which is a problem you don't have in a studio.

LmnLm3 said:
And since I'm shopping for budget priced mics
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If you are looking for budget priced mikes, you should consider the Behringer C2. It is sold in pairs at an extraordinary low price, but is surprisingly versatile. I've had astonishing results on upright bass. If you happen not to like it, you have not wasted a huge amount of money, and it is always handy to have a spare pair of mikes in your locker.
 
LmnLm3 said:
Do I just use a preamp and post production to shape it to where I want it?
Click to expand...

I think trying to shape the sound with a preamp is one of the last things you would want to do. Its job is to bring the relatively low output of a microphone up to line level. A really top notch preamp can help to open up the sound of certain mics - especially dynamics and ribbons. But unless you're in a well treated room with a good monitoring chain that allows you to hear the differences, it's likely you won't notice. Until then, bigger gains can be made elsewhere. I like the suggestion about room treatment and it will cost you nothing but time to research it.

Having said that you can really screw up the sound of a recording by running a preamp too hot. Especially with the lower cost ones. Running consevative levels is a big help. Proper gain staging is the issue here.

LmnLm3 said:
I even like the look of the MK-219 haha - it's out of my budget at the moment though. I think that will be the next mic I add to my setup. I wonder if I would be ok with just the 57 and PL84 for a while... hrm...
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I don't see why not. The 57 is perfectly useable and I'm sure the PL84 will do things the 57 can't. And vice versa.

LmnLm3 said:
I guess I figured that because most of the sound of a cello is realized at around 1 meter from the bridge (not at the f hole like most stage engineers try to tell me...) that a condenser is the way to go at that distance - never used a 57 from a meter away from anything! Seems like a bad idea.
Click to expand...


If you try it you'll answer your own question. At a guess, I'd say the condenser is likely to have hotter output making it so that you don't have to lean on the preamp as hard. And the condenser is likely to have way more detail than a 57 which might sound nice on an acoustic source. The 57 is likely to sound thicker on certain things, which might also be a good thing sometimes.

In any case 1 meter from the bridge is a good starting point if it works for you. If you can maintain that and move the cello around the room to find where it sounds best, there's another piece of the puzzle. You can also try different mic placements. Perhaps pointing down at where the neck meets the body from a couple feet away. Closer or farther if you want to play with the proximity effect of the mic.

To keep things simple for starters I'd probably just experiment with any variables you can come up with, with only one mic. When and if you get to wanting to try two on the same source, it opens a can of worms called phase.


Post production corrections like eq and such are okay for minor things, but it helps to get things as close as you can at the source.

Honestly, I'd concentrate a lot on performance, mic placement and room sound before worrying about throwing too much money at gear. Hendrix would sound like Hendrix on a K-Mart blue light special. I can't get that sound on a handmade custom shop guitar.

Ain't always the gear.
 
gecko zzed said:
You don't need one. For cello, the bigger the room the better.
.....
If you are looking for budget priced mikes, you should consider the Behringer C2. It is sold in pairs at an extraordinary low price, but is surprisingly versatile. I've had astonishing results on upright bass. If you happen not to like it, you have not wasted a huge amount of money, and it is always handy to have a spare pair of mikes in your locker.
Click to expand...

I have been eyeing the CAD CM-217 stereo pair, I think they're the same price, for a while now... Was not sure if they would be more useful all-around than a similarly priced LDC (2020)


snow lizard said:
I think trying to shape the sound with a preamp is one of the last things you would want to do. Its job is to bring the relatively low output of a microphone up to line level. A really top notch preamp can help to open up the sound of certain mics - especially dynamics and ribbons. But unless you're in a well treated room with a good monitoring chain that allows you to hear the differences, it's likely you won't notice. Until then, bigger gains can be made elsewhere. I like the suggestion about room treatment and it will cost you nothing but time to research it.

Having said that you can really screw up the sound of a recording by running a preamp too hot. Especially with the lower cost ones. Running consevative levels is a big help. Proper gain staging is the issue here.

If you try it you'll answer your own question. At a guess, I'd say the condenser is likely to have hotter output making it so that you don't have to lean on the preamp as hard. And the condenser is likely to have way more detail than a 57 which might sound nice on an acoustic source. The 57 is likely to sound thicker on certain things, which might also be a good thing sometimes.

Honestly, I'd concentrate a lot on performance, mic placement and room sound before worrying about throwing too much money at gear. Hendrix would sound like Hendrix on a K-Mart blue light special. I can't get that sound on a handmade custom shop guitar.

Ain't always the gear.
Click to expand...

My point with the Hendrix comment was exactly that. The musician is more important than the gear. Not infinitely so, but noticeably. I'll have to look into the phase issue, because I do plan on running at least 2 mics on it (one for finger noise and breathing, one for bow attack, and a room mic or two) but that's future.

I made a recording on that instrument in 2003 on a 57 and it was GARBAGE (got me the scholarship anyway, since they didn't care about the recording quality) so thick and compressed sounding it was awful. There is so much resonance and air about the cello (way more than a violin or bass) that is outside the response range of the 57 tbh. I think if I was doing just cello recording and wanted to make albums and albums of cello music I'd go with a 414 one close for all the mechanical noise and breathing and one like 5 meters back (more if I had a larger room, it's only like 17 feet long by 11 feet wide)

And the cello doesn't want a booth, but my voice might, not sure about uke... it's a pretty intimate instrument. But intimacy is a whole other issue in recording, don't want to get into that now.

So pretty much if I want a flat mic (like reference mic but for recording) than get a used 219 and keep it forever and ever? or stereo sdc like the above-mentioned or MXL993s or whatever and use my vocal stage condenser for my vocals?
 
or is the freq range of a 57 fine, it's just the spl of a cello is so low that it sounded compressed? just realized how the range on sdcs only go up to like 13-15kHz... thought the V63m sounded better because of it's freq response, that's why I figured 2020 would give me the range I need...

The more you know.....
 
The AKG Perception mics are in your price range and unlike most budget mics, they do not emphasize the highs but are a little heavy on the mid range.
Decent mics and not something you will be in a hurry to ditch after you upgrade.
 
LmnLm3 said:
or is the freq range of a 57 fine, it's just the spl of a cello is so low that it sounded compressed? just realized how the range on sdcs only go up to like 13-15kHz... thought the V63m sounded better because of it's freq response, that's why I figured 2020 would give me the range I need...

The more you know.....
Click to expand...

There are ways to open the top end of a 57. It's not known for that in stock form.

SDC mics are typically full range things. The PL-84 has a range listed as 50 Hz to 20 kHz.
 
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