Help: Mic Decisions and My Trip to Guitar Center

JohnnyMan

New member
I’m about to buy a crown for my mic collection. I went to Guitar Center with my mic pre (M-Audio DMP3), a set of headphones, and my MXL V67G to use as a reference mic. My goal was to audition mics and then buy one,of course. My main desire is a mic that can record my vocals well and maybe my acoustic guitar. Between suggestions from the knowledgeable sales rep (and GC’s limited mic selection) and this BBS, I narrowed my choices between these 5 mics:

AT4040 - $299 (can be found on ebay for $240)
Shure KSM32 - $399
Shure KSM44 - $699 – I’ve seen it as low as $550 on ebay.
AT 414 B-XLS – $794 (including tax – best price that they could do?!?)
Neumann TLM 103 - $989

I went into a partially secluded room where they keep their “recording” products. I borrowed a Taylor 6-string acoustic (I don’t the model but the list was around $1100) from their display. I first played the guitar and sang into my reference mic because I am familiar with that one. I then tried each mic. I did the same thing with each mic: played and sang. I spent around 3 hours switching back and forth between mics. I understand that the mind can be convinced that louder is better so I tried to keep this in mind while adjusting the gain on the mic pre between each mic.

This is what I discovered:

AT4040 – nice mic for the price. I felt that there was a slight boost in the higher frequencies. It made my voice sound slightly harsher than it usually does. Guitar sounded good though.

Shure KSM32 – great mic for vocals. Reduced the harshness in my voice. I liked this one a lot for vocals but it would not be my first choice as, say ,a room mic for acoustic guitars.

Shure KSM44 – a very sensitive mic. I barely had to raise the gain at all on the mic pre. This is a 3 pick-up pattern mic. I mainly had the cardioid pattern selected. This mic seemed to pick up everything in the room (computers, monitors, hum from speakers, etc.) and my movements (guitar rubbing against denim pants etc.). I liked the sound of my voice and guitar with this one.

AKG 414 B-XLS
– a very nice mic. This is a 5 polar pattern mic. I kept it on what I thought was the tightest cardioid pattern. This mic required more gain from the pre amp than the KSM44 but seemed to pick up less surrounding room noise than the KSM44. This is a sweet sounding mic! I feel the many polar patterns, pads, and bass roll off selections will become very handy to have available.

Neumann TLM 103 – I thought this mic was just as good as the 414 and maybe even the KSM44 was not that far behind it in sound quality. This mic is sensitive where it should be. I liked how the guitar and my voice sounded. I have read many posts here saying the TLM 103 is Neumann’s worst mic and it’s shit etc. etc. but I liked it. I really want to own a Neumann mic. Even if it’s just to say I have one. But even though I liked its sound, I felt that between the higher price and the lack of polar patterns and pads, I could not justify buying it today.

So what did I buy?



Nothing. I bailed and came home to ponder my decision more. I am currently leaning very strongly in the AKG 414’s direction.

I would like to hear your suggestions, recommendations, or comments.

Thanks
 
Humm, well first off... IMO, all those mics are pretty good low end priced mics and really a matter of personal preference. From reading your quick review... for you, it seems to be between the Shure KSM44 and AKG C414... which again, are both good mics IMO. So here's what I'd do if I was you... I'd rent both the KSM44 and C414 and do as many shootout's as I could on as many sound sources as possible, and record it... do multi-tracks and etc. Then I'd listen back to the tracks (with a good monitoring system) and pick the mic I liked best overall. And that's the mic I'd buy if I was you. Now, on another note... the C414 has been a studio standard for a long time and most likely will always have a good resale value.
 
If I'm having having a really tough time deciding ... and all other things are equal (can't discern a noticeable advantage in either one) ... I'll do one of two things:

a) Get the less expensive on (kind of a no-brainer, there)

or:

b) Get the one with the higher output. Maybe I'm just superstitious on this, but I have read where a higher output can sometimes mean healthier, more robust electronics -- again assuming all other factors being equal.

Considering the options you're currently pondering, you could also just flip a coin, and either way you'd walk out with a solid mic.
 
DJL, First of all thank you for the reply.

DJL said:
Humm, well first off... IMO, all those mics are pretty good low end priced mics and really a matter of personal preference.
No offense but are they really “low-end”? For a home/hobby recordist, I would think that a mic purchase of any amount over, say, $500 to be a significant investment. Especially with all the Chinese-made mics that are now available at such a low price.
From reading your quick review... for you, it seems to be between the Shure KSM44 and AKG C414... which again, are both good mics IMO. So here's what I'd do if I was you... I'd rent both the KSM44 and C414 and do as many shootout's as I could on as many sound sources as possible, and record it... do multi-tracks and etc. Then I'd listen back to the tracks (with a good monitoring system) and pick the mic I liked best overall. And that's the mic I'd buy if I was you. Now, on another note... the C414 has been a studio standard for a long time and most likely will always have a good resale value.
The “studio standard” term was also in my mind when I was auditioning the C 414. It may have added additional weight to my judgment as did the Neumann name. Thanks for the advice on renting the mics. I will look tomorrow for places that rent mics and see how cost effective it will be to further investigate these mics.
 
You search has brought you to the almost identical spot mine did a number of weeks ago. I ended up going with the TLM103. (1) because I liked it. And (2) because I found a place that gave me a good deal. Here's a link to their website if you're interested:
http://www.boyntonproaudio.com/catalog/

They're good folks there and they are willing to negotiate price. I paid over $200 less than the price you were quoted...
 
JohnnyMan said:
I’m about to buy a crown for my mic collection. I went to Guitar Center with my mic pre (M-Audio DMP3), a set of headphones, and my MXL V67G to use as a reference mic. My goal was to audition mics and then buy one,of course. My main desire is a mic that can record my vocals well and maybe my acoustic guitar. Between suggestions from the knowledgeable sales rep (and GC’s limited mic selection) and this BBS, I narrowed my choices between these 5 mics:

AT4040 - $299 (can be found on ebay for $240)
Shure KSM32 - $399
Shure KSM44 - $699 – I’ve seen it as low as $550 on ebay.
AT 414 B-XLS – $794 (including tax – best price that they could do?!?)
Neumann TLM 103 - $989

I went into a partially secluded room where they keep their “recording” products. I borrowed a Taylor 6-string acoustic (I don’t the model but the list was around $1100) from their display. I first played the guitar and sang into my reference mic because I am familiar with that one. I then tried each mic. I did the same thing with each mic: played and sang. I spent around 3 hours switching back and forth between mics. I understand that the mind can be convinced that louder is better so I tried to keep this in mind while adjusting the gain on the mic pre between each mic.

This is what I discovered:

AT4040 – nice mic for the price. I felt that there was a slight boost in the higher frequencies. It made my voice sound slightly harsher than it usually does. Guitar sounded good though.

Shure KSM32 – great mic for vocals. Reduced the harshness in my voice. I liked this one a lot for vocals but it would not be my first choice as, say ,a room mic for acoustic guitars.

Shure KSM44 – a very sensitive mic. I barely had to raise the gain at all on the mic pre. This is a 3 pick-up pattern mic. I mainly had the cardioid pattern selected. This mic seemed to pick up everything in the room (computers, monitors, hum from speakers, etc.) and my movements (guitar rubbing against denim pants etc.). I liked the sound of my voice and guitar with this one.

AKG 414 B-XLS
– a very nice mic. This is a 5 polar pattern mic. I kept it on what I thought was the tightest cardioid pattern. This mic required more gain from the pre amp than the KSM44 but seemed to pick up less surrounding room noise than the KSM44. This is a sweet sounding mic! I feel the many polar patterns, pads, and bass roll off selections will become very handy to have available.

Neumann TLM 103 – I thought this mic was just as good as the 414 and maybe even the KSM44 was not that far behind it in sound quality. This mic is sensitive where it should be. I liked how the guitar and my voice sounded. I have read many posts here saying the TLM 103 is Neumann’s worst mic and it’s shit etc. etc. but I liked it. I really want to own a Neumann mic. Even if it’s just to say I have one. But even though I liked its sound, I felt that between the higher price and the lack of polar patterns and pads, I could not justify buying it today.

So what did I buy?



Nothing. I bailed and came home to ponder my decision more. I am currently leaning very strongly in the AKG 414’s direction.

I would like to hear your suggestions, recommendations, or comments.

Thanks

I don't know how useful a live audition with headphones is, especially for ones own vocals where there are several paths for transmission of the voice. I would want to listen to a recording before making a final judgement. Try to rent the mics / or buy them from a shop with a decent return policy and try them on several sources.
 
You know, I just reread my post and it sounds an awful lot like spamming. I apologize. However, please know that I do not work for that company nor have any vested interested in it.

I have, however, spent a lot of money there over the years, though...:)
 
chessrock said:
If I'm having having a really tough time deciding ... and all other things are equal (can't discern a noticeable advantage in either one) ... I'll do one of two things:

a) Get the less expensive on (kind of a no-brainer, there)

or:

b) Get the one with the higher output. Maybe I'm just superstitious on this, but I have read where a higher output can sometimes mean healthier, more robust electronics -- again assuming all other factors being equal.

Considering the options you're currently pondering, you could also just flip a coin, and either way you'd walk out with a solid mic.
Thanks for the feedback Chessrock.
The price of these mics does put significant pressure on my mic-buying decision. All the mics I demoed were display units. Maybe when I go back to make the final purchase, I'll try a fresh-out-of-box C414 and see what its output is like. Although I suspect that the QCing of these mics at the factory is quite thorough. I like the resale comment that DJL made (although I will probably hang onto this mic for a very long time.)
 
I think that GCs salespersons are commissioned so when you go back and make the sale be sure to talk to the same guy who helped you with this evaluation. Salesman hate it when their effort winds up being a 'bluebird' for somebody else or some online seller. That is what makes salesmen surly and uncooperative. If instead you come back and let him have the deal then the next time you want to audition mics you won't get the cold shoulder.
 
justharold said:
You search has brought you to the almost identical spot mine did a number of weeks ago. I ended up going with the TLM103. (1) because I liked it. And (2) because I found a place that gave me a good deal. Here's a link to their website if you're interested:
http://www.boyntonproaudio.com/catalog/

They're good folks there and they are willing to negotiate price. I paid over $200 less than the price you were quoted...
Thanks for the link justharold. I will definitely look into that tomorrow. Guitar Center is having another one of their “No Payments for a Year” deal and it ends tomorrow (until their next sale which will probably be at the end of this month).

Were you deciding between the mics I mentioned? What was the deciding factor(s) to buy the Neumann?

John
 
paddyponchero said:
I don't know how useful a live audition with headphones is, especially for ones own vocals where there are several paths for transmission of the voice. I would want to listen to a recording before making a final judgement. Try to rent the mics / or buy them from a shop with a decent return policy and try them on several sources.
Thanks paddyponchero. That's one thing GC is NOT good at, i.e. being tolerant to accepting mic returns. The rep told me that GC has a nation-wide policy of “no mic returns”.

John
 
justharold said:
You know, I just reread my post and it sounds an awful lot like spamming. I apologize. However, please know that I do not work for that company nor have any vested interested in it.

I have, however, spent a lot of money there over the years, though...:)
Thanks for the follow up. Spamming was the last thing that entered my mind when I read your post. My thoughts were something like, “$200 bucks less. That’s what I’m talking about!!”
 
singin with headphones is a terrible way to audtion a mic, it's pretty much useless. If they have a recording room (most do) take them in there and lay down some seperate tracks with no processing for each mic then start comparing tracks after you can sit and listen to them carefully. You are not really hearing the mics the way you are approaching this.
 
slobbermonster said:
singin with headphones is a terrible way to audtion a mic, it's pretty much useless. If they have a recording room (most do) take them in there and lay down some seperate tracks with no processing for each mic then start comparing tracks after you can sit and listen to them carefully. You are not really hearing the mics the way you are approaching this.
My first idea, and maybe I should have done this, was to drag my Roland VS880 hard disk recorder down and record the mics. Take the recordings back home and listen to them through my monitors. I suppose I can still do that tomorrow.
Thanks,

John
 
If GC doesn't let you buy and return, then that would make sense. They probably are trying to curb the "rental" problems they've had. Lots of people have "purchased" gear and instruments for a week or 2 and then "return" them for various "reasons". If you can afford it, it's worth the money to get better than the mics you've listed, but then again the financing terms are attractive.
 
slobbermonster said:
If GC doesn't let you buy and return, then that would make sense. They probably are trying to curb the "rental" problems they've had. Lots of people have "purchased" gear and instruments for a week or 2 and then "return" them for various "reasons". If you can afford it, it's worth the money to get better than the mics you've listed, but then again the financing terms are attractive.
Slobbermonster, what do you mean by "it's worth the money to get better than the mics you've listed"? What mics would you suggest and what is wrong with the mics I have auditioned? I am very interested to heat your suggestions. I would like a mic (as everyone) that is great on male vocals (mine) and acoutic guitars (to be used as a room mic - - I will also use SDC such as Oktava MK012s on acoustics).
 
JohnnyMan,

Yeah, I had pretty much narrowed it down tot he mics you mentioned as well. It actually came down to the KSM44 and the Neumann. I liked the Neumann slightly better on my voice though. What I did do (at the Guitar Center that I was at) was record the 2 mics onto a Korg D1600 that they had there. I plugged in the mics, recorded two tracks of me singing, and then burned the wav files to a cd (that I just happened to have with me...)

I then took the CD home and listened to it on my stuff...in my studio.

It was still close (as far as the comparison was concerned). Listening to them at home was not that much different than listening to them at the store. I mean, it was "different"...but it didn't change my initial impressions.

The "kicker" for me was the price I got from Boynton on the Neumann. You can get KSM44's for around $550 all day long. So, I figured I'd pick one up later. Someday.

I did end up getting a used C414B-ULS on ebay shortly afterwards. They didn't have any of the AKG's at the Guitar Center when I went, so I never got to try one out. I bought it strictly on recommendation and reputation.

And, honestly, as much as I like my Neumann...I think my C414 is more flexible...

Boy...that's probably doesn't help you much, huh???
 
Flatpicker said:
Do you have to haggle for this price? The website is showing $699.
Oh, sure...sometimes (except on ebay). But you don't have to haggle very hard or long...

By the way...you will find that EVERYBODY'S websites show pretty much the same prices. It s my understanding that the manufacturers have some kind of regs on how much items can be listed for online. The real differences will be found when you call them and ask. Then, to take it to another level, I usually have a list of vendors to call and get prices. I then take the lowest ones (3 or 4) and call them back using the THE lowest quoted price as a reference and say, "Can you beat it?"

You will sometimes be amazed at how much these things actually sell for. After a while you will kind of build up a reputation with some of theses guys who will pretty much "cut to the chase" as soon as you call and give you great pricing up front.

Two examples: I called one fellow the other day (with whom I have down business with in the past) and asked him for a price on the SP T3. He said, "Hmmm, let's see...the 'Harold price' is $519."

I called another guy about a Presonus Central Station (which sells for $499 everywhere) and he said $399 shipped.

Haggling...it's a wonderful thing.
 
justharold said:
I called one fellow the other day (with whom I have down business with in the past) and asked him for a price on the SP T3. He said, "Hmmm, let's see...the 'Harold price' is $519."
The standard price for the T3 at 8thstreet is $499. This guy must be overcharging.
 
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