Having some trouble with the RE20 (White noise/hiss)

Parin

New member
(Chain: RE20 ---> Cloudlifter CL-1 ---> dbx286s ---> Scarlett Solo)


No matter what I do, I cannot get the hiss to go away with this microphone when attempting to raise the gain levels up to a usable point (around 60 or so db). Using a Cloudlifter does nothing but reduce the amount of gain required on the dbx286s' preamp required to trigger the hiss. Is there something that I'm missing? Aside from the Cloudlifter (which is supposed to be completely quiet) and the dbx, there are no other sources of gain. I've been trying for weeks to get the hiss to go away; I'm so frustrated at this point that I'm preparing to give up and get a condenser instead...
 
Hi,

Can you post a clip of the hiss just for certainty?


Are you using mic into dbx via XRL cable, and line out of DBX and into scarlett over TRS cable (both ends) ?

How do you get on with the DBX taken out of the chain? Just re20 - cloudlifter - scarlett...
 
Vocaroo | Voice message

No fans or anything like that running anywhere near me; HF Detail is turned up to about 4 or so on the DBX, which I typically do because the sound is too dark with too much bass otherwise. Not sure if the HF Detail could be triggering it.
 
Had to turn my speakers up to 'deafen' to hear that but yeah...
I hear more hum than hiss.

Hard to be sure but it sounds a lot like computer fans.....

Can you answer the questions I asked and do another clip with your voice in there for reference, please?

Also try this : Put the headphones on and arm a track, so that you can hear yourself/the noise in your headphones.
Now move the microphone around and see if you can make the noise louder quieter.

Basically, use the mic as a detector to rule out noise from something in the room.
 
You forgot to answer these Questions:

Are you using mic into dbx via XRL cable, and line out of DBX and into scarlett over TRS cable (both ends) ?

How do you get on with the DBX taken out of the chain? Just re20 - cloudlifter - scarlett...


Always best to listen to what members ask if you want to get to the source of your issues. Just sayin...

And yeah, not much there actually. I had to crank my monitors to hear it. Whatever it is.
 
Sorry about that, here you go. The only running fans in this room are computer fans that are quite some distance away from the microphone, and running at lowest RPM setting, as well. After attempting to turn the fans off, the hiss did not subside. To ensure that they weren't the cause, I wrapped the microphone up tightly in a towel, and listened; nearly all noise aside from the hiss went away. A highpass filter was used in these clips to remove the low-frequency hum in the background (I know where that's coming from; It's behind the wall in the apartment, which I isn't causing as much issue as the hiss is). The hiss didn't seem to be affected by the microphone's placement as I moved it around using my PSA-1.


The connection is as follows:

RE20 into Cloudlifter CL-1 over XLR,
Cloudlifter CL-1 into dbx286s over XLR,
dbx286s into Scarlett Solo over 1/4" TRS.


The noise remains relatively the same if not a tiny bit better when hooking the Cloudlifter directly into the microphone input, assuming that HF Detail isn't being used. HF Detail is being used in the clips below at setting 4 out of 10.

Pure hiss: Vocaroo | Voice message
"1,2,3,4", followed by pure hiss for comparison: Vocaroo | Voice message

A noise gate is used in the second clip.

If HF Detail is turned completely better, the hiss goes away a good bit, but at the expense of making things sound much darker and with a bit too much bass (I've been using HF Detail to remedy that a bit).
 
Listening to your 1,2,3,4 recording, it sounds like a gain staging issue. I am not sure if that's the gate causing it, or too much gain.
Just thinking out loud about some areas that you may have overlooked:

You are TRS to TRS, line out from the DBX to channel 2 on the solo, with "Line" toggled on?

With all the HF detail, compressor, enhancers, and gates killed, what happens when you back the gains off, for both the DBX and the Solo, phantom power on, then slowly increase the DBX Mic gain to a useable level (tickling the yellow) on the DBX meter, with output gain at "0", and then add Solo gain to taste?

Reading your original post, you said you were "attempting to raise the gain to a useable point (around 60db or so)." With the CL-1 adding up to 25dB of gain to the chain using the phantom power, you shouldn't be required to turn the DBX Mic gain up to 60dB too. Is phantom power engaged? What does is sound like with about 30-35dB of DBX mic gain and output gain at "0"?

Just troubleshooting-thinking.
Dale
 
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That's much clearer than in the first clip so yeah, clearly there's a problem.

I'd still take the DBX out of the loop to rule it out.
You may want to use it, but it shouldn't be necessary.

Go mic->CL->Interface to test.

Dale's advice is good too but please, do both.
 
I'd still take the DBX out of the loop to rule it out.

Go mic->CL->Interface to test

I totally agree Steen. I went back, re-read the thread and found that he never said if he tried it without the 286, as twice suggested. Eliminate the biggest potential culprit, first.
Dale
 
I totally agree Steen. I went back, re-read the thread and found that he never said if he tried it without the 286, as twice suggested. Eliminate the biggest potential culprit, first.
Dale
Agreed. Trouble shooting 101 is to simplify, isolate, and sort out the variables. Goal one in this case would be to start simple, establish that you can get a normal clean track recorded. Then you have a baseline. Then add the other stuff (and 'features/processing) back in.

Parin.. said:
HF Detail is turned up to about 4 or so on the DBX, which I typically do because the sound is too dark with too much bass otherwise. Not sure if the HF Detail could be triggering it.
Don't know the unit but- before 'enhancing or 'boosting- consider as an approach in general, reduce what there is too much of.
 
Hooking the RE20 directly into the Focusrite, the gain on line one is turned to approximately 4 o' clock on the dial. The specs page says that the Focusrite maxes out at 50db through this input, but that can't be right, can it? The RE20 requires more than that. Regardless, the hiss doesn't go away; Utilizing the Cloudlifter here increases the maximum potential gain, but the hiss increases as the gain is cranked up. When adjusting the Solo to the amount of gain necessary to hit -18db recording levels in Audacity using a normal speaking voice at about six inches away from the microphone, the results are the same when using the Cloudlifter at lower gain settings on the Solo and when using the Solo at higher gain settings without the Cloudlifter. The amount of gain necessary to hit -18db in Audacity produces similar noise on the dbx as well. Could it be the microphone?

It is not the cables, if that were a possibility; I'm using Mogami Golds for the XLR and TRS input/output. Note: Without HF Detail turned up, it can be a bit hard to hear the hiss at reasonable volume settings. The main issue here is that I need HF Detail to achieve the sound that I'm looking for. I'm very doubtful that HF Detail itself is causing the hiss, but rather, it's causing hiss thats already there to become much more noticeable. My goal is to eliminate the hiss entirely, no matter how slight it may be without HF Detail engaged, so that it won't cause issues when I start to enhance the higher frequencies (which is where the hiss is).


I may have overlooked something, but just to cover all the bases:

RE20 to dbx286s to Scarlett Solo has been tested.
RE20 to Cloudlifter to dbx286s to Scarlett Solo has been tested.
RE20 to Cloudlifter to Scarlett Solo has been tested.
RE20 to Scarlett Solo has been tested.


All of these produce the hiss when using the microphone at the levels of gain required to hit at least -18db recording levels in Audacity. One last thing that I should mention is that I'm trying to get all of this to work so that no post-processing is required to eliminate the noise; Certain things that are beyond my control, such as negligible amounts of background noise, are things that I'm okay with. This in particular sounds like it's coming from my equipment, rather than my environment. The intended use for now is things such as VOIP/Skype/video conferencing, so I usually don't do any cleanup after the fact.


EDIT:

I'd like to amend this post with the following, which is part of the reason I believe that the source may be the microphone itself:

How to avoid the self-noise of Electro-Voice RE-20 microphone - Quora

[In the comments] .... The problem is inherent to the latest iteration of passive filter within the microphone. RE20s from 2011 through current have this flaw.

And another:

audio recording - How can I avoid the self-noise of Electro-Voice RE-20 microphone? - Sound Design Stack Exchange


[In the comments]...The problem with the RE20 of current production is that they make use of an SMD PCB and the PCB has errors in the layout and components which are noise generators.

This can be verified by taking any RE20 with filter assemblies from previous iterations and compare with the newer style RE20 A/B on an FFT. You will find the newer RE20s have an unaceptable amount of noise.

They are aware... yet for almost 5 years (since 2011) nothing has been done to remedy.

Good luck, my advice is to sell the newer mic and go after an older RE20.
 
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Hooking the RE20 directly into the Focusrite, the gain on line one is turned to approximately 4 o' clock on the dial. The specs page says that the Focusrite maxes out at 50db through this input, but that can't be right, can it? The RE20 requires more than that. Regardless, the hiss doesn't go away; Utilizing the Cloudlifter here increases the maximum potential gain, but the hiss increases as the gain is cranked up. When adjusting the Solo to the amount of gain necessary to hit -18db recording levels in Audacity using a normal speaking voice at about six inches away from the microphone..

"1,2,3,4", followed by pure hiss for comparison: Vocaroo | Voice message

A noise gate is used in the second clip. ..
This is tough way to get this done.. compared to trouble shooting 'with hands on'.
This clip #2 above, what's going on? First you hear "1234" and if you jack the playback up you can hear a bit of HF noise modulating up during the words.
Then we hear -with out jacking the volume up- room noise so loud I can hear you clicking your keyboard 'stop' command!
What are we hearing? HF emphasis modulation on the words? or the gate opening (maybe both?)
But in the second half -that's a ton of room noise! Did you jack the gain up in the sample for that part of it?
Now, like I said, 'hands on', it'd take about five minutes to sort this out :) , but here,
we're making best guess' shots.
Having said that.. RE-20, no proximity effect to worry about.. fairly quiet voice, 'six inches'..
Yeah. Get the heck up on the mic?
 
This is tough way to get this done.. compared to trouble shooting 'with hands on'.
This clip #2 above, what's going on? First you hear "1234" and if you jack the playback up you can hear a bit of HF noise modulating up during the words.
Then we hear -with out jacking the volume up- room noise so loud I can hear you clicking your keyboard 'stop' command!
What are we hearing? HF emphasis modulation on the words? or the gate opening (maybe both?)
But in the second half -that's a ton of room noise! Did you jack the gain up in the sample for that part of it?
Now, like I said, 'hands on', it'd take about five minutes to sort this out :) , but here,
we're making best guess' shots.
Having said that.. RE-20, no proximity effect to worry about.. fairly quiet voice, 'six inches'..
Yeah. Get the heck up on the mic?


Yes, that's whats happening. The second half of that clip does have the gain increased, so that it can be heard very clearly on its own (as previous posts were mentioning that it wasn't detectable without turning one's audio all the way up). It was done that way to ensure that everyone in this thread can hear it, as opposed to just me. If I'm doing something wrong by doing that, I apologize; I don't entirely know what I'm doing here, but I'm giving it my best faith effort (I've only been at this for the past month or so). In regards to the keyboard, the microphone was very close to it at the time, if that matters.


Does the gate opening make noise? I wouldn't particularly know if it did or not; I've never heard of that, but I haven't been doing this for very long, either. HF Detail was set to 4 out of 10 on the dbx for all clips that were posted, because as I had mentioned, this is what it's usually set to when I'm using the microphone. I'm not sure if there's a certain amount of hiss that's supposed to be inherent of acceptable; For me, I like to hear myself speak through my direct monitoring on the Focusrite as I speak, to get a general idea of what I sound like as it's going through the call. This requires that the volume be loud enough so that I'm able to hear the hiss, which may be why I'm able to notice it more readily. To answer one of your questions, the thing that I'm taking the most issue with is the hissing that occurs as the gate closes back up after speaking a word; Such as what you hear at the tail end of "one", then "two"... etc. Ideally, I'd like to reach a point to where there is no hiss whatsoever, if that's possible; This is why I invested in the Cloudlifter. I don't actually know if it's possible or not, but what I've seen watching Youtube videos on the subject, it appears to be(?).
 
I think there's an easy way to determine if it's coming from the microphone or the circuitry that follows it.

Plug in RE-20 -> Focusrite Interface. Set the gain at some arbitrary 'safe' figure. Leave it there.
Set the mic somewhere and don't move it.

Now record ten seconds of 'silence', insert the cloudlifter into the chain, and record ten more seconds of silence.

The ambient noise will be louder with the CL. You'll need to ignore that and focus on the hiss.

If the hiss is louder on take 2 it's coming from the mic.
If it's the same, it's coming from the circuity that follows.


I have my re20 hooked up right now and any self noise in there is way below my computer fans, and those are very quiet!
 
Yes, that's whats happening. The second half of that clip does have the gain increased, so that it can be heard very clearly on its own (as previous posts were mentioning that it wasn't detectable without turning one's audio all the way up). It was done that way to ensure that everyone in this thread can hear it, as opposed to just me. If I'm doing something wrong by doing that, I apologize; I don't entirely know what I'm doing here, but I'm giving it my best faith effort (I've only been at this for the past month or so). In regards to the keyboard, the microphone was very close to it at the time, if that matters.
No, no problem at all. It's just we need to always know- and be aware of what the variables are -both us out here, and you :)

Does the gate opening make noise? I wouldn't particularly know if it did or not; I've never heard of that, but I haven't been doing this for very long, either. HF Detail was set to 4 out of 10 on the dbx for all clips that were posted, because as I had mentioned, this is what it's usually set to when I'm using the microphone. I'm not sure if there's a certain amount of hiss that's supposed to be inherent of acceptable; For me, I like to hear myself speak through my direct monitoring on the Focusrite as I speak, to get a general idea of what I sound like as it's going through the call. This requires that the volume be loud enough so that I'm able to hear the hiss, which may be why I'm able to notice it more readily. To answer one of your questions, the thing that I'm taking the most issue with is the hissing that occurs as the gate closes back up after speaking a word; Such as what you hear at the tail end of "one", then "two"... etc. Ideally, I'd like to reach a point to where there is no hiss whatsoever, if that's possible; This is why I invested in the Cloudlifter. I don't actually know if it's possible or not, but what I've seen watching Youtube videos on the subject, it appears to be(?).
Ok, this time I jack up the playback [in phones] in the '1234'. That is not a lot of noise.
Regardless, getting up on the mic will improve 'room and electrical noise conditions.
Likely the dbx will indicate when the gate is open or closed (?
 
Ok, this time I jack up the playback [in phones] in the '1234'. That is not a lot of noise.
Regardless, getting up on the mic will improve 'room and electrical noise conditions.
Likely the dbx will indicate when the gate is open or closed (?

I've also tried about 3 inches away; The distance doesn't help with the white noise. Though, I try not to get too much closer, as I don't have a suitable pop filter for the RE20 at the moment.


At Stena:

On the Scarlett Solo, the following settings are applied:
Line 1 gain at 75%/3-O'Clock on the gain dial
Monitor volume at 75%/3-O'Clock on the volume dial
Windows volume at 100% (This is because I control my volume entirely through the dial on the Focusrite alone)

The volume is set so high because:
-It is difficult to hear myself through the monitor otherwise.
-To ensure that I detect any issues through these recordings, if there are any.

[During all of these recordings, the microphone was wrapped up tightly in a towel, with the room dead silent (minus the hum behind the wall)]

Here is a series of clips following the conditions you requested:

RE20 into Solo:
Vocaroo | Voice message

RE20 into Cloudlifter into Solo:
Vocaroo | Voice message


The next two clips are the same as the above, but with the following adjustments:
-Highpass filter at 1000Hz with a 12db rolloff, to eliminate the strong hum coming from behind the wall (should be irrelevant to the hiss).
-Amplification of hiss up to 25db, to ensure that the hiss can be heard in this clip at a much lower volume level.

RE20 into Solo:
Vocaroo | Voice message

RE20 into Cloudlifter into Solo:
Vocaroo | Voice message


Here is an additional clip from the dbx, using the settings I typically use when in a call:

RE20 into dbx286s into Solo:
Vocaroo | Voice message


This one has the same highpass filter applied, but the gain was only increased by around 9db; The white noise is much stronger here. Typically, I aim for around -14db to -7db, if I want to be comfortably heard at a reasonable volume level. These figures were taken through advice given on articles such as this one, which recommends -12db to -6db (to my understanding):

http://ohda.matrix.msu.edu/2012/06/achieving-good-audio/

When I'm attempting to reach -14db to -6db, I'm usually doing so while speaking around 3-4 inches away from the microphone (any closer would result in terrible plosives, I'd imagine).
 
I'm starting to wonder if your voice is ridiculously quiet! :p

I have no way of gauging how loud that low frequency hum is. I presume it's aircon or computer fans or something, but in the first pair of clips the hiss is very quiet relative to it.
The hiss does increase with the cloudlifter which, as far as I know, suggests that it is, indeed the self noise of the microphone.

Can we have a straight forward clip of re20 into interface with a sensible gain.
No EQ, no filters, no gates...just 5 seconds silence and 5 seconds normal talking?
 
Is the mic mounted on a boom arm attached to a desk or otherwise in a stand on a desk? Below is one of your wav's normalized in Audacity and most of the waveform is a sine wave. I can't say there was much 'hiss' that I could notice, as the sine wave was pretty over powering.
noise.jpg

Normalized wav as mp3. Is this the 'hiss' or 'hum behind the wall'?..
 

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I hooked up my RE20 into my 286s (trs-trs) into a Tascam US144mkii. I have a Fethead, but didn't need to use it as the gain of the 286 and the Tascam was more than adequate. I could get a reasonable -12db level into Audacity to record voice at about 4" distance. I did have an XLR cable that was acting up and creating a staticy type of noise, but changed it out and it cleared up. Tonight wasn't a good night to check for background hiss as it's raining and I have a sky window where I record and the rain on the window would have made any hiss impossible to hear. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll try it again when it's quieter.
 
Looks like 120Hz mains crap to me Mark?

There is no trace of 60Hz in Right Mark* so the hum has to be coming from a rectified power supply.

*Weirdness, never happened before..When I inserted the MP3 clip into Sam Silver to convert it to .wav for RMA, it would not work 'Wrong sampling format' . Sure 'nuf, it was 22050 Hz. Now Sam S has a very comprehensive converter for all sorts of audio formats so, not a problem but why 22050? I NEVER set ANYTHING to other than 44.1kHz,EVER!

Dave.
 

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