Guitar Cabinet Mics

J

Janglin_Jack

New member
I have been using a single mic with mixed results on my guitar cabinets. SM57, Audix i5. I also have a Sennheiser e906 for easy live use, but may give that more time for recording.

I have lots of posts and reading lots of recording notes and articles about using multiple mics. Many seem to use a dynamic paired with a ribbon or condenser. I have also seen lots of people swear by the SM57 and MD421.

I was considering an MD421 to pair with my SM57 but was intrigued with a cascade fathead. The recent one was a Heil PR30.

I like the idea of a single mic for cabinets, what are your thoughts on a PR30? Not sure what approach I should take.

Ideas?
Mike
 
I use all kinds of combinations, the 57 and the 421 and also the e906 you have will all give good results. I do sometimes pair a condenser and a 57 or 421. I also pair a ribbon (fat head style) and a 57 or a condenser, all these combinations give a good sound just different. I also usually close mic guitar cabs even though some here like room (distant) mics.

If you already own a 57 and a e906, I would try to get a sound out of these as you should be able to, why not try both together.

Final note, watch for phase when using 2 mics, you may need to adjust the mic distance or flip the phase on 1 mic.

Alan.
 
the sm57 and md421 are classics for good reason! I would stick with that combo. It's been tried and tested and just works, you get the meat from the 421 and the bite from the sm57
 
Janglin_Jack said:
I have been using a single mic with mixed results on my guitar cabinets. SM57, Audix i5. I also have a Sennheiser e906 for easy live use, but may give that more time for recording.

I have lots of posts and reading lots of recording notes and articles about using multiple mics. Many seem to use a dynamic paired with a ribbon or condenser. I have also seen lots of people swear by the SM57 and MD421.

I was considering an MD421 to pair with my SM57 but was intrigued with a cascade fathead. The recent one was a Heil PR30.

I like the idea of a single mic for cabinets, what are your thoughts on a PR30? Not sure what approach I should take.

Ideas?
Mike
Click to expand...

First question is what are you trying to achieve and what is keeping you from achieving it?

Others have provided some widely proven mic combinations (all really good - I would through a Royer 121 in there too) but you own the most widely used mic for capturing a guitar on countless recordings many of the Grammy winners.

So I go back to my question what/why can't you capture the sound you want with the most standard microphone know to man (and women too)? If the answer for you turns out to be I need better mics then so be it.

Granted there are better mics than the 57 but I would start with the sound source before I spent money on more expensive solutions but that's just me.
 
Simman said:
First question is what are you trying to achieve and what is keeping you from achieving it?

Others have provided some widely proven mic combinations (all really good - I would through a Royer 121 in there too) but you own the most widely used mic for capturing a guitar on countless recordings many of the Grammy winners.

So I go back to my question what/why can't you capture the sound you want with the most standard microphone know to man (and women too)? If the answer for you turns out to be I need better mics then so be it.

Granted there are better mics than the 57 but I would start with the sound source before I spent money on more expensive solutions but that's just me.
Click to expand...
We have been able to get some great tones in the room from the guitar rigs. We were setting up a single mic and getting a good sound and went with it. Later at mix time, I found that there were things I wish were different. Sometimes it is how much gain, othertimes it might need some EQ othertimes it is more ambient sound. So I think in general we get good useable tracks, but at mix time, I find myself spending a lot of time trying to get it to fit the mix. In the end, it becomes a good learning experince, but the tracks seem less than desired. We are getting better each time, but as newbies, there is a steep curve.

As an experiment, I used an SM57 close, a borrowed Fathead about a foot away and an LDC about 8 feet away. Blending these mic gave us some cool stuff. Can use one mic or blend, etc. This opened my eyes to bledning two mics, which led to my question about using two mics and blending, (worried about phase issues and getting two lousy tracks vs one...LOL). That is why I asked about the PR30, as it seems like a nice choice as a single mic. The curves are "similar" to a blended SM57/MD421.

So before I plunk down some $$ on an MD421 or anthing else, I just wanted to get some guidance. I know there is no once size fits all and many viable approaches. Just want to increase my chances for good tracks. It seems the two mic approach gives me a good opportunity to get one good track for the mix with either mic and potentially a blended signal.

Mike
 
Janglin_Jack said:
We have been able to get some great tones in the room from the guitar rigs. We were setting up a single mic and getting a good sound and went with it. Later at mix time, I found that there were things I wish were different. Sometimes it is how much gain, othertimes it might need some EQ othertimes it is more ambient sound. So I think in general we get good useable tracks, but at mix time, I find myself spending a lot of time trying to get it to fit the mix. In the end, it becomes a good learning experince, but the tracks seem less than desired. We are getting better each time, but as newbies, there is a steep curve.

As an experiment, I used an SM57 close, a borrowed Fathead about a foot away and an LDC about 8 feet away. Blending these mic gave us some cool stuff. Can use one mic or blend, etc. This opened my eyes to bledning two mics, which led to my question about using two mics and blending, (worried about phase issues and getting two lousy tracks vs one...LOL). That is why I asked about the PR30, as it seems like a nice choice as a single mic. The curves are "similar" to a blended SM57/MD421.

So before I plunk down some $$ on an MD421 or anthing else, I just wanted to get some guidance. I know there is no once size fits all and many viable approaches. Just want to increase my chances for good tracks. It seems the two mic approach gives me a good opportunity to get one good track for the mix with either mic and potentially a blended signal.

Mike
Click to expand...

First I'm not trying to be a dick but if you are capturing the guitar sound you want during tracking and at mix time you change your mind or doubt your choices, I'm not sure how any mic combination addresses that. I will say IMO you are experiencing the same frustrations we all run into. Hind sight is 20 20.

That being said a 57 and a 421 is a great combination. Throw in a condenser room mic and as you've already experience woks well.
 
Simman said:
First I'm not trying to be a dick but if you are capturing the guitar sound you want during tracking and at mix time you change your mind or doubt your choices, I'm not sure how any mic combination addresses that. I will say IMO you are experiencing the same frustrations we all run into. Hind sight is 20 20.

That being said a 57 and a 421 is a great combination. Throw in a condenser room mic and as you've already experience woks well.
Click to expand...
I think it is similar as to playing guitar by yourself and thinking how great your rig sounds, (and it probably does), then when you step on stage and play live and your sound is lost in the mix. The shocking realization that your killer guitar tone is not right for a band setting.

I think we are getting some OK tracks, but laking experience, not able to predict how will sound in the mix. Once it is in the mix, trying to EQ and tweak it to work, ultimatly feeling like it needs to be redone. So I wanted to work with multiple mics to increase the chances that what we track will work well in the mix. I'm a guitar player not an sound engineer, so at times I feel like a monkey effing a football.....

Just trying to do what I can to learn and try new techniques.
 
Janglin_Jack said:
I think it is similar as to playing guitar by yourself and thinking how great your rig sounds, (and it probably does), then when you step on stage and play live and your sound is lost in the mix. The shocking realization that your killer guitar tone is not right for a band setting.

I think we are getting some OK tracks, but laking experience, not able to predict how will sound in the mix. Once it is in the mix, trying to EQ and tweak it to work, ultimatly feeling like it needs to be redone. So I wanted to work with multiple mics to increase the chances that what we track will work well in the mix. I'm a guitar player not an sound engineer, so at times I feel like a monkey effing a football.....

Just trying to do what I can to learn and try new techniques.
Click to expand...

Look this is a endless learning experience so don't anything discourage you.
But what you are describing is exactly why you should never solo individual tracks and tweak them on their own out of context of the rest of the instruments. If you do that you will usually end up with a mix that doesn't work. Understand that there will be contention between tracks/frequencies that when combined will ultimately effect (sometimes good - sometimes not so much) how each one sounds. Solo a track, listen, make tweaks but, always make final tweaks in the context of all tracks on. Some of those tweaks may be large cuts or boost in EQ. A track can sound like complete ass when soloed but in the mix, sounds completely awesome.

Look there may be times when you actually do need to retrack; no harm in doing that at all.

Good luck and welcome to hell. :D
 
Simmon..

You have been very helpful, so thanks for the tips and encouragement. I don't do anything until we have all the tracks and then adjust some levels and get a listen to what we have. It is then when things start to jump out as to what is good and what needs to be redone.

At the time of tracking, we dial in a good sound for the room....some that is used when we play as a band...then try to capture that with the mic. When we feel like we have it...we track... Once in the mix that is when problems arise. I mix at home, but we track at a rented rehearsal studio. So my studio monitors are not with me for tracking...etc. lots of limitations, I know. Not seeking perfection, but just trying to improve and get the best we can as we go.

If you think multiple mics are a mistakes, I will focus on one. If you think I should work with one SM57 only, I will do that. I don't want to make purchases for the sake of something new thinking it will magically fix my recording. But it seems like having a couple tracks with different flavors would be helpful...again...multiple mics, SM57, MD421, Ribbon, Condenser.

Thanks again for all the feedback.
Mike
 
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Janglin_Jack said:
Simmon..



If you think multiple mics are a mistakes, I will focus on one. If you think I should work with one SM57 only, I will do that. I don't want to make purchases for the sake of something new thinking it will magically fix my recording. But it seems like having a couple tracks with different flavors would be helpful...again...multiple mics, SM57, MD421, Ribbon, Condenser.

Thanks again for all the feedback.
Mike
Click to expand...

With multiple mics I work in 2 ways, if I have the rest of the track up in the monitors and we know what we want guitar sound wise, I will often blend the multiple mics to 1 track. If we are tracking early on or a live band playing, I will have the guitar mics recording to their own tracks so that we can pick, blend, etc later.

Alan.
 
The 57/421 combo is a great choice. The 57 has what the 421 lacks and vice-versa.

Random question: are you dialing in the tone first, and then trying to mic it up? I've always found it easier to mic the cabinet in another room, then tweak the amp listening to the monitors. It's too easy to fall in love with the feel of the amp in the room. The sound of the amp in the room is irrelevant, that sound will only happen once. The rest of the world will be listening through the mics.
 
Farview said:
The 57/421 combo is a great choice. The 57 has what the 421 lacks and vice-versa.

Random question: are you dialing in the tone first, and then trying to mic it up? I've always found it easier to mic the cabinet in another room, then tweak the amp listening to the monitors. It's too easy to fall in love with the feel of the amp in the room. The sound of the amp in the room is irrelevant, that sound will only happen once. The rest of the world will be listening through the mics.
Click to expand...
We dial up the amp sound and then search with the mic to find a good spot. With our space limitations, that means someone on their knees with headphones moving the mic. As you can imagine, you can't really hear properly that way. We do a few test recordings and listen back, but the big limitation is not having proper monitoring chain in that room. Playback is monitored with headphones...not great, I know.

I will use the tips offered here, and really try and figure out a situation to get the monitoring area separated. If we get creative, we might be able to figure out a situation that will work.

Thanks Jay and Alan
 
Janglin_Jack said:
I think it is similar as to playing guitar by yourself and thinking how great your rig sounds, (and it probably does), then when you step on stage and play live and your sound is lost in the mix. The shocking realization that your killer guitar tone is not right for a band setting.

I think we are getting some OK tracks, but laking experience, not able to predict how will sound in the mix. Once it is in the mix, trying to EQ and tweak it to work, ultimatly feeling like it needs to be redone. So I wanted to work with multiple mics to increase the chances that what we track will work well in the mix. I'm a guitar player not an sound engineer, so at times I feel like a monkey effing a football.....

Just trying to do what I can to learn and try new techniques.
Click to expand...

Following your msg above, it may be worth also trying different amp tones. I've often found that I have to tweak my amp settings when recording so that the guitar sits at the right place in the mix.
 
56tweed said:
Following your msg above, it may be worth also trying different amp tones. I've often found that I have to tweak my amp settings when recording so that the guitar sits at the right place in the mix.
Click to expand...

Yup!

Try rolling off some of the low end at the amp. You might be muddying up the mix by competing with the bass.
 
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