Do ribbon mics come in matched pairs for stereo recording?

[halfred]

If not, would their be any problem with using two ribbon mics with slighhtly different frequencies for recording acoustic solo piano?

 

[LeeRosario]

If not, would their be any problem with using two ribbon mics with slighhtly different frequencies for recording acoustic solo piano?

I believe the companies who sell ribbon mics would have matched pair deals. Royer sells a stereo ribbon all in one capsule. I figure as long as they are the same model and made within a reasonable amount of time from each other, you should be fine.


If you're hell bent on getting them matched, some audio shops actually match them up for you as an extra service.

 

[Shadow_7]

There are some that come matched. Although matched might mean made on the same day or from the same batch for some manufacturers. Others actually test them and have a tollerance of a certain amount of variation. I think that my STO-2's are matched within 0.3dB of each other. So it depends really on how you define matched.

Ribbons tend to be frail, so even if you get a tested matched pair, the second they hit the UPS van, they become unmatched. Not that that's anything to fret over. It really depends on why you need matched. If you truly "need" matched, then ribbons are probably not the way to go. Despite all of that, the gain levels will likely be matched. The frequency response, I guess depends on the quality of the materials used. And the craftsmanship. And a lot of that is subjective.

As long as you have two of the same mic, they should appear matched enough. i.e. sound the same. And many of the ribbon stereo techniques don't relay on matched. We're not exactly talking binaural head / jecklin disc / schneider disc and other techniques. Blumlein and M+S depend on mixing the two mics in different ways between two channels. Binaural is more of a two identical ears pointed in different ways and not something done with ribbons anyway.

 

[halfred]

There are some that come matched. Although matched might mean made on the same day or from the same batch for some manufacturers. Others actually test them and have a tollerance of a certain amount of variation. I think that my STO-2's are matched within 0.3dB of each other. So it depends really on how you define matched.

Ribbons tend to be frail, so even if you get a tested matched pair, the second they hit the UPS van, they become unmatched. Not that that's anything to fret over. It really depends on why you need matched. If you truly "need" matched, then ribbons are probably not the way to go. Despite all of that, the gain levels will likely be matched. The frequency response, I guess depends on the quality of the materials used. And the craftsmanship. And a lot of that is subjective.

As long as you have two of the same mic, they should appear matched enough. i.e. sound the same. And many of the ribbon stereo techniques don't relay on matched. We're not exactly talking binaural head / jecklin disc / schneider disc and other techniques. Blumlein and M+S depend on mixing the two mics in different ways between two channels. Binaural is more of a two identical ears pointed in different ways and not something done with ribbons anyway.

thanks. Yeah I'm not saying that I need matched. I just noticed that you never see thaem sold online in matrched pairs and was wondering why. I was just thinking that with two ribbons used for solo piano, there wouldn't be any significant difference. Just wanted to double check-- and I'm thinking about buying two that are the same model from the same company.

 

[Shadow_7]

I think the main issue with stereo ribbons is that they don't age well. So even if you start matched, five years of idle storage later, you don't have matched. So warranty wise manufacturers are hesitant to claim matched ribbons. But it doesn't really matter since ribbon stereo techniques do not require matched-ness. If you AB them you might notice. But then again the figure 8 patterns makes AB an undesireable setup for ribbons. Or I could be wrong.

 

[Jim Lad]

I have a pair of RSM 2s which, I'm sure, I can't tell apart.
I suppose your area of concern would be the centre of the piano which would be picked up by both mics.
Perhaps what you really will need is some good advice on mixing the two once you've recorded them.

 

[Marik]

I think the main issue with stereo ribbons is that they don't age well. So even if you start matched, five years of idle storage later, you don't have matched.

May I ask where did you get this information, or what is it based on?

Best, M

 

[halfred]

I have a pair of RSM 2s which, I'm sure, I can't tell apart.
I suppose your area of concern would be the centre of the piano which would be picked up by both mics.
Perhaps what you really will need is some good advice on mixing the two once you've recorded them.

I'm not going to be doing any mixing, just sending the raw data to audio engineer, no limitng, mixing etc. Just winging it by ear.

 

[Shadow_7]

May I ask where did you get this information, or what is it based on?

Just an interpretation that you need to store them a certain way. And to maximize life they should be used upside down half their life to even out the effects of gravity. I suppose that if you replace ribbon elements that it's not an issue. But we are talking about a mic that has to be boxed when moving across a room or the wind will influence the mic in a bad way. Perhaps an exageration, or not.

 

[LeeRosario]

I'm not going to be doing any mixing, just sending the raw data to audio engineer, no limitng, mixing etc. Just winging it by ear.

Honestly, the matched thing isn't needed. It's surgical for the anal retentive engineers like myself, but two of the same will do you fine. I guarantee it. Very few people will be able to tell the difference at such a surgical level.

 

[dgatwood]

Perhaps an exageration, or not.

With as much metal grille material as my Chinese ribbons have around them, I think I'd probably be safe using them outdoors in an F4.... Well, maybe not, but in my experience, they're not nearly as fragile as you seem to think they are. I'd imagine it depends highly on the particular mic.

 

[halfred]

Honestly, the matched thing isn't needed. It's surgical for the anal retentive engineers like myself, but two of the same will do you fine. I guarantee it. Very few people will be able to tell the difference at such a surgical level.

thanks for the info--I was assuming there wouldn't be any big deal difference but wanted to double check with the Forum.

 

[Shadow_7]

With as much metal grille material as my Chinese ribbons have around them, I think I'd probably be safe using them outdoors in an F4.... Well, maybe not, but in my experience, they're not nearly as fragile as you seem to think they are. I'd imagine it depends highly on the particular mic.

You obviously don't live where I live. When you come home to find the canvas tarped car port schreaded and the locked doors to your house open and your trashcans about 2.5 acres away from the enclosure where you had them and the mower pushed out of the shed. And that's just the seasonal winds. Not that it helps living in a town who's only internet hit is the F5 that leveled the place a little over a decade ago.

 

[halfred]

You obviously don't live where I live. When you come home to find the canvas tarped car port schreaded and the locked doors to your house open and your trashcans about 2.5 acres away from the enclosure where you had them and the mower pushed out of the shed. And that's just the seasonal winds. Not that it helps living in a town who's only internet hit is the F5 that leveled the place a little over a decade ago.

man and his microphones, against the elements

 

[Shadow_7]

man and his microphones, against the elements

Tell me about it. My DIY fake fur wind socks are 3 layers thick. And still only mostly effective. Technically 5+ layers as I have a windtech foam on the business end, then Rycote lavalier furs on top of that, THEN my 3 layers. And some extra cuttings to pad the back side so none of the layers have wrinkles in them. All bound tight with some velcro cord ties. What's surprising is how little the recorded sound appears to be affected by all that mass. Not that it helps only having 0.5" thick fake fur as a base. But still that's a lot of wind... protection.

Eventually I need to work on rain / water protection, which will likely involve DIY zeppelins and hopefully take a layer or two away from the rest of the setup. Fortunately I haven't actually had to deal with the rain monster yet. But I have a plan for that eventuality. Needless to say that ribbons, while ideal for the genre, just wont handle the rest of the package. Which accounts for greater than 50% of the season. And about 90% of the part of the season that's worth recording.

Which is 100% of why I got into this recording thing. There's just not many boyscouts around. It's all about the million dollar software package to correct the mistakes after the fact, rather than preventing them in the first place. Or a million mics hoping that at least one of them does the job. And here's $20 off of your $200 package because they didn't.

 

[halfred]

Tell me about it. My DIY fake fur wind socks are 3 layers thick. And still only mostly effective. Technically 5+ layers as I have a windtech foam on the business end, then Rycote lavalier furs on top of that, THEN my 3 layers. And some extra cuttings to pad the back side so none of the layers have wrinkles in them. All bound tight with some velcro cord ties. What's surprising is how little the recorded sound appears to be affected by all that mass. Not that it helps only having 0.5" thick fake fur as a base. But still that's a lot of wind... protection.

Eventually I need to work on rain / water protection, which will likely involve DIY zeppelins and hopefully take a layer or two away from the rest of the setup. Fortunately I haven't actually had to deal with the rain monster yet. But I have a plan for that eventuality. Needless to say that ribbons, while ideal for the genre, just wont handle the rest of the package. Which accounts for greater than 50% of the season. And about 90% of the part of the season that's worth recording.

Which is 100% of why I got into this recording thing. There's just not many boyscouts around. It's all about the million dollar software package to correct the mistakes after the fact, rather than preventing them in the first place. Or a million mics hoping that at least one of them does the job. And here's $20 off of your $200 package because they didn't.

You record nature sounds in the North Pole or somethin'?

 

[Shadow_7]

You record nature sounds in the North Pole or somethin'?

That would probably be easier to do. Since snow doesn't hose the mics as much. But no, just large brass ensembles performing a field show outdoors. And in the midwest / more specifically central Texas region it can be quite windy with sustained winds > 30mph for half of the year. Factor in a few structures / buildings and gusts can be common and in excess of 70mph. There's a common phrase in certain parts of this country. Don't like the weather, then wait five minutes, it'll change.

 

[halfred]

That would probably be easier to do. Since snow doesn't hose the mics as much. But no, just large brass ensembles performing a field show outdoors. And in the midwest / more specifically central Texas region it can be quite windy with sustained winds > 30mph for half of the year. Factor in a few structures / buildings and gusts can be common and in excess of 70mph. There's a common phrase in certain parts of this country. Don't like the weather, then wait five minutes, it'll change.

Oh, I see. A bad hair day 50% of the time. Didn't know recording brass ensembles was a specialty. Guess it would be.

 

[Shadow_7]

Oh, I see. A bad hair day 50% of the time. Didn't know recording brass ensembles was a specialty. Guess it would be.

Not much more of a speciality than recording piano. Although the specs are slightly different. Max SPL is more important (130dB+, ribbons handle that well). Polar pattern needs to be a full 180 degrees and even across that spectrum(M+S and Blumlein work well). And just like piano, nice and flat across the full spectrum of frequencies. Or a mic on each voice to manually inject balance. And since the venue is outdoors, that alone introduces many OTHER elements. The mics are further away, the elements are working against you, and most gear was not designed to be all weather. Especially ribbons. Factor in that most weather proofing gear / accessories costs more than the mics if bought commercially and not DIY. And specialties have their drawbacks.

 

[halfred]

Not much more of a speciality than recording piano. Although the specs are slightly different. Max SPL is more important (130dB+, ribbons handle that well). Polar pattern needs to be a full 180 degrees and even across that spectrum(M+S and Blumlein work well). And just like piano, nice and flat across the full spectrum of frequencies. Or a mic on each voice to manually inject balance. And since the venue is outdoors, that alone introduces many OTHER elements. The mics are further away, the elements are working against you, and most gear was not designed to be all weather. Especially ribbons. Factor in that most weather proofing gear / accessories costs more than the mics if bought commercially and not DIY. And specialties have their drawbacks.

Well, the environment I'm working in is less harsh---my living room--but also a challenge to get a decent sound. I was in the midst of experimenting with positioning two NT1A's as well as a pair of Pulsars when I was rudely interrupted by my Microtrack ll malfunctioning (no suprise.) Anyway it's on the way back from the factory after being repaired and one of my piano students is going to buy it so I'll get most of my money back. I just ordered what I think is going to be a kick ass field recorder. It's a Tascam HD P2 that has been upgraded by Oade Brothers. I heard some audio samples of a Tascam without upgrades and it sounded great. So the one I'm getting with upgraded preamps, circuitry etc. should be fantastic. Probably as good or better than a Sound Devices and for a little more than half the price. Can't wait to get it and experiment once I figure out how to work the damn thing (always a challenge for me and frustrating until I understand it.) My next move will be to get a pair of SP C4's and try the omnis. Those "in the know" have recommeneded them for my situation. Then when I decide which mics I'll be using, I'll sell the ones I'm not using, and maybe buy a pair of ribbons unless I'm totally satisfied with the results from any of the other mics I already have.