cheap mics for classical piano?

J

jojobuck

New member
Hi, I am a recording newbie and would really appreciate any help. I have a Sharp MS722 Mini Disc recorder, and I would like to record classical piano.

Can anyone recommend a solution, either one mic, or two mics? Also, would I need some sort of preamp? Preferably, I'd like to spend around $200-400

I should add I have a baby grand in a fairly sonorous room and plan to mic about 5 feet from the lid.

Any recommendations are welcome. Thanks!
 
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get a sound professionals kit...the SP-CMC-8s with the battery box...(omni characteristic)www.soundprofessionals.com
jojobuck said:
Hi, I am a recording newbie and would really appreciate any help. I have a Sharp MS722 Mini Disc recorder, and I would like to record classical piano.

Can anyone recommend a solution, either one mic, or two mics? Also, would I need some sort of preamp? Preferably, I'd like to spend around $200-400

I should add I have a baby grand in a fairly sonorous room and plan to mic about 5 feet from the lid.

Any recommendations are welcome. Thanks!
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Jojobuck,

First, I'd recommend to look at this thread on Klaus' forum:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/9561/1759/?SQ=878064a7198470295e766fa166074550

It is not impossible to get OK results with your budget. I posted some hints on the techniques, so getting a pair of SP4 (which includes both pair of omnies and cardioids), and a ribbon (for example Shiny Box), together with some cables, separate phantom power, etc. will put you little over, if you could stretch a bit.

If you want to stay within a budget, MXL has a new omni/cardioid SD, which could work OK as an "M". Together with ribbon "S" such setup should give much more homogenous sound than those mics intended for MD recorders.

To matrix MS into stereo you will need whether a mixer, or some kind of software, which has an "invert" function.
 
I recently recorded the soundtrack to a musical theatre production where classical style piano played a big role . . . I have many, many mics - some costing over $1000 to those under $100 and I decided to use 2 Behringer ecm8000 omni measurement mics (less than $50 each) on a homemade jeckin disc. I recorded with the lid open, from the back of the piano, halfway between the high & low strings & with the disc hovering about a foot above the strings. The results were very good - clear and natural - not dense like the sound of piano in rock, but as if I were sitting nearby the piano and listening - very natural. I expect the same (or similar) setup would work great on your classical recording.
 
mzocoh said:
I recently recorded the soundtrack to a musical theatre production where classical style piano played a big role . . . I have many, many mics - some costing over $1000 to those under $100 and I decided to use 2 Behringer ecm8000 omni measurement mics (less than $50 each) on a homemade jeckin disc. I recorded with the lid open, from the back of the piano, halfway between the high & low strings & with the disc hovering about a foot above the strings. The results were very good - clear and natural - not dense like the sound of piano in rock, but as if I were sitting nearby the piano and listening - very natural. I expect the same (or similar) setup would work great on your classical recording.
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I've heard those Behringer mics can be a bit noisy. If so, that could be a problem for a classical piano recording.

I often see pairs of Oktava MK012's for around $250 used on Ebay. The remaining $150 out of a $400 budget would almost pay for a DMP3. For a little over $400, you could get well-respected mics and a quiet 2-channel preamp.

Then again, you'll be suprised at what good mic stands and cables are going to cost, so that budget will get stretched a bit more...
 
I'm going on the results of the final recording which was beyond satisfactory (very good!) at a minimal budget - IMO the noise level of the mics had a minimal effect on the quality of the final recording - certainly no obvious noise or hiss & I expect the sound floor of the room was quite a bit greater than the self-noise of the mics, so it's even less of a factor in the end. Based on what I heard when the recording was complete & not on the specs of the mics I would say the setup was very capable of producing a true classical piano sound, without compromise at the budget. But . . . there are the dbx or audix measurement mics that may do the same w/ less noise, though at a greater expense.
 
I vaguely remember.....

I think it was in one of the standard recording type mags that a well known classical pianist had his own recording rehearsal room w/grand piano and did his own digital recordings.
I believe he used 2 Josephsons hanging from the ceiling and maybe another room mic. I believe Mics were about 3 feet above the piano, one closer to the actual keys and one closer to the end of the piano and just above the open edge of the lid.
He had gone to great lengths to "find the right sound" and has done quite a few album/CD recordings.
I'll see if I can look it up later today................................ :confused:
BG/HSG
 
I have used SP C4s on piano with good results. Sure I would prefer a pair of AT4050s but they're out of your (and my) price range right now. They're pretty natural and defined (unlike MK012 or MXL603s) and you have the option of omni as well. No fig-8 though, if you're seriously considering going for M-S in the future.

Nik
 
If you're a DIYer check out the Tape Op magazine DIY Omni's based on a really nice Panasonic omni capsule. I built a pair for I think $20ish and honestly they're some of the better mics in my locker (actually more like a milk crate). Set up those two with a Jecklyn Disk and you're good to go.

Look for the article on:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/
I found it there once a while ago.

That will leave more $$$ for the preamp - where I'm at a loss. Perhaps a pair of Rane MS1b's?

Good Luck
 
Your minidisk recorder no doubt has a single miniplug that usually has plug-in power. or it might have only a line-in jack. Phantom power is a different standard than plug-in power.

If your minidisk recorder has a mic-in jack with plug-in power your best choice would be one of the several single point stereo microphones that are designed for minidisk recordig. Audio Technica and Sony are the primary suppliers.

If your minidisk recorder has only a line-in jack then I would recomend a small mixer with decent preamps (like a mackie) and phantom power and two small diamater condensers such as the SP C4 or the Ocktavas mentioned by others. I would not recommed M-S recording with a minidisk to a beginner as it is both more complicated and more expensive (remember that the minidisk is recording already using lossy compression so you have to do the processing of the mics to get a stereo signal outboard). You can then play around with the locations and eq. My usual advice to a beginner is to decide the perfect location where you would want to listen to this piano or ensemble and put an XY or ORTF pair there.
 
recording classical piano on a budget

Innovations said:
Your minidisk recorder no doubt has a single miniplug that usually has plug-in power. or it might have only a line-in jack. Phantom power is a different standard than plug-in power.

If your minidisk recorder has a mic-in jack with plug-in power your best choice would be one of the several single point stereo microphones that are designed for minidisk recordig. Audio Technica and Sony are the primary suppliers.

If your minidisk recorder has only a line-in jack then I would recomend a small mixer with decent preamps (like a mackie) and phantom power and two small diamater condensers such as the SP C4 or the Ocktavas mentioned by others. I would not recommed M-S recording with a minidisk to a beginner as it is both more complicated and more expensive (remember that the minidisk is recording already using lossy compression so you have to do the processing of the mics to get a stereo signal outboard). You can then play around with the locations and eq. My usual advice to a beginner is to decide the perfect location where you would want to listen to this piano or ensemble and put an XY or ORTF pair there.
Click to expand...

Everyone thanks for your comments. I guess now my question is, how big of a difference would there be in sound quality between 1) using a single point stereo mic (like the Sony ECM-MS957 or Sound Professionals SP-SPSM-17), and 2) using something like a pair of SP C4s with a decent mixer/phantom?

I am leaning towards option 1 simply because of cost (under $200) and simplicity, but I might reconsider if there is a huge discrepancy in recording quality between the two options. I appreciate anyone's thoughts..
 
First, tuning the piano will help.

If you have one mic, open the piano lid then place it halfway along the strut. Adjust the mic angle to point to near the middle C string.

If you have two mics, place the first as above, then place the second in the curved recess of the piano facing the lid hinge (near bass strings) halfway down the piano.

If you have three mics, place the first two as above, then place another in the room over the head of the player.

I've used poor mics and mixers using the above config and the results are always workable for recordings. It will depend on how bright your piano is naturally.

In a home setting, always have drapes / blankets along one side of the room, where the piano sounds loudest. Even clothes on a clothesrack will assist in containing reflections. A rug or soft furnishings are desirable.

With condenser mics and a little judicious placement you should get a great recording.

And when you mix down, boost 2kHz and 12khz a little to make the piano "sing" ;)

Others may offer their advice, and some may disagree vehemently, but I've survived many recordings (some without the chance of a soundcheck) with the above arrangement and it always has worked out OK.

Good luck.
 
Marik said:
...a pair of SP4 (which includes both pair of omnies and cardioids), ...MXL has a new omni/cardioid SD...
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Marik, how would you compare the SP4 cardioid to the new MXL to the older MXL 603 with cap mods?
 
I don't know if you could get one for under $400, but maybe a used Shure VP88? It's a M-S condenser mic, switchable between phantom power and an replaceable lithium battery. I've seen it used a lot for classical recording in various halls, and I have one that I use for a piano mic.
 
jojobuck said:
Everyone thanks for your comments. I guess now my question is, how big of a difference would there be in sound quality between 1) using a single point stereo mic (like the Sony ECM-MS957 or Sound Professionals SP-SPSM-17), and 2) using something like a pair of SP C4s with a decent mixer/phantom?

I am leaning towards option 1 simply because of cost (under $200) and simplicity, but I might reconsider if there is a huge discrepancy in recording quality between the two options. I appreciate anyone's thoughts..
Click to expand...
Well I whould not characterize it as a huge discrepancy. One of the main thing you will get with the mixer is a greater range of capabilities, for example to eq, pan, possibly effects depending on the mixer's features. Also with two mics you get more options in terms of placement. But you know, by the time you are ready to take advantage of all that you are most likely also going to be wanting to record on something besides minidisk. (To clarify that statement minidisks record using a lossy compression and with the portable players you can't transfer the digital files directly to a computer.)
 
MichaelJoly said:
Marik, how would you compare the SP4 cardioid to the new MXL to the older MXL 603 with cap mods?
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Michael,

I like the SP4. There is something very nice about its capsules. I compared them in the same tube circuit with MXL603 capsules and think they are superior. It is not surprising, as the SP4 are more expensive.

It is hard to say about modded 603, as I used 2.2MF caps, so it had more bottom end. But once again, once I connected SP4's capsule to the 603 circuit, it was clear the SP4 capsule was more "alive" and less dull flat.

In fact, in my tubed version of the mic, for some sources I use SP4 omni capsules a lot, even for commercial piano recordings.
 
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