Budget mics.... what level of pres?

cstockdale

supafly killa homey
Okay, if all you have are Studio Projects B-series mics (B1, B3), and Marshall MXL603s, which are capable, but not astounding by any stretch of the imagination... what level of preamp is worth going to?

I hope someday to have the dollars to have good mics and good pres, but I have a huge wishlist, and that day is a long way away. In the meantime, I want to make my budget mics sound as good as I can.

With mics like these, do you hit the wall with the mic first or the pre? Is there going to be a qualitative difference between a VLZPro, a SOundcraft Spirit M series, a DMP3, and how much worse is a Behringer UB series pre going to be with those mics ?

My overall strategy is attempting something like the following:

use my budget mics, get the best matched pres for those mics, and work to record all my stuff I want to record, slave over the editing, arrangement, mix, and get everything as good as I can make it with the tools I have, and then, and only then, when I know exactly what part I need to play, I can then go and rent some serious gear (good mics, good pres), and say on one weekend do nothing but acoustic guitar parts, another weekend, nothing but vocals, and tailor my rentals to those particular bits that need doing.

Because in reality I know I cannot afford a Neve console, or an Avalon pre ever . But I can afford to rent them for a few days at a time.
 
I shall play the part of the heretic - but that comes later on...
To directly answer the question - the best preamp you can buy is the best choice. Thats the simple answer. However, I believe that the mic-pre makes much more of a difference on a dynamic than a condenser...shoot me if you want - but thats my feeble take on the matter...now I will play the heretic...
If, and only IF, you are only using gear to learn, and not to actually record for a polished end result, Id just get the cheapest things I could. Theoretically, you should just buy some $30mics, the cheapest behringer or whatnot you can find, and screw around...now invariably where this dives away from the realm of theory is that you will want to BUY more gear eventually to do nice recordings on your own time. At this juncture, you have "wasted" money buying the cheapest crap possible. I learned [and still have a long long way to go] on a really budget system powered by a 9 volt almost 8 years ago.
The other place where the theoretical realm fails is that you will be limited at what you might be able to learn if you dont have decent gear, but this doesnt apply to every basic skill persay.
Now that Ive rambled endlessly about nothing - Id say this...buy good gear cause in the worst case - you can sell it for a small loss...(Behringer for whatever reason keeps it resale so this is an exception).
Alls I know is that if I were you, I would buy a mixer (if you are planning on recording bands, or learning to record bands) or a preamp (if you are just going to record yourself and never need to know more). I think a mixer will allow you to learn more (e.g. auxes, eq, etc) that you might not necessarily get out of a preamp (without additional investment).
I guess what Im attempting to spout is the following: if you are trying to learn, and only learning, you can get away with stuff that people make fun of around here. If you are trying to learn and then use that stuff later on, you should prolly stick with good stuff. However, you state you want to rent stuff later on - so in that case, buy cheap crap and learn mic placement, setting levels, etc.

(NOTE: It sorta depends on what you want to learn, cause if you want to learn about digital recording, you wont get by with a tape deck, likewise, you may need to pony up some cash to get features which are needed in your education..)

And to think I walked away from a stoning for such evil opinions...
 
cstockdale said:

My overall strategy is attempting something like the following:

use my budget mics, get the best matched pres for those mics, and work to record all my stuff I want to record, slave over the editing, arrangement, mix, and get everything as good as I can make it with the tools I have...

IMO if you can really learn how to use decent gear you will be able to make quality recordings. sonusman used to make fabulous recordings with ART preamps, AT4033 mics, Event 20/20 monitors, etc.--not exactly Neve/Neuman/Genelec. Others on this Board have made very high quality recoirdings with modest gear.
 
If you are using a STudio Projects B1, I'd go for either an SP VTB1 or the DMP3. I would really doubt that after using this gear well, that as a given recording progressed, someone would say, "Gee, this song is great, but it sounds like you had the wrong preamp..." What I would be careful of is inexpensive gear that is noisy, introduces artifacts, or is plain unreliable. The VTB1 is dead quiet, and the DMP3 is very popular around these parts.

Check out the EQ and ProAudio reviews of the VTB1.
 
My approach was to go for a little variety and in the process I ended up with a DMP3, which I use all the time, it seems. it's very clean, predictable, and pretty wild for the money. So that would be my first choice. It can be a little hot.

Second choice is probably a better preamp, but one channel - That's the Studio Projects VTB-1.

Third choice is a hell of a nice preamp for more money - the Grace.

You can tell a realist's $$$ budget is running my thought process here. The Grace ultimately blows away the DMP3 for quality but for the money still comes in second.

I have a Blue Tube and I've heard it do nice things, but it is a twitchy little sucker and easy to muddy up if you're not paying attention. Tired tubes make it die a horrible death. With new tubes I've heard it shine, though. Don't confuse this with a "real" tube pre - it is a wall wart powered low current unit with a tube circuit.

ART = VALUE; they have an added benefit for live work of a built in limiter, but it's a bit on the dull side. Not on my list given what else is out there, but a great preamp to start on.

If you have a Mackie VLZ board, maybe spend some time with those before getting anything in the $100 / channel range. You may already be there.


So - If I were to buy another preamp tomorrow, I would need to get talked out of another DMP3 to try anything else in the price range. It's not Avalon, but it's pretty nice.
 
Well, I am beyond the beginner stage, and am using decent software (Sonar XL, Waves Gold). The reason for suggesting that I would likely rent top-end gear is primarily because I know I can't afford $3000 preamps/$3000 mics etc. It just isn't in the cards.

I find my biggest limitation to recording right now is having a piece-o-shit mixer that limits my connectivity (A Behringer 602A), no inserts, only 2-outs. I jam a lot in my basement, and I use a lot of different setups for recording vocals/guitars etc. As such I am always plugging/unplugging things, and having to take 15 minutes to rewire everything everytime I want to record is such a pain that half the time I just play without recording, and subsequently miss the best takes.

A Mackie 1402 VLZ-Pro, a SOundcraft Spirit M8, or *gasp* a Behringer UB2442 would all leave me with a setup that could be essentially permanently wired: my mics always set up, my routing for my guitars/amps/effects always in place. Then all I would have to do is setup a template in Sonar, and just click the "R", and record anything and everything I play.

Form extensive reading, I gather the preamp rankings would go along these lines:

Soundcraft>Mackie>Behringer.

But in the end, if I had the Soundcraft, will I be "sonically satisfied"? Or will i still be craving the Avalon? I am guessing that I will still be wanting the Avalon at the end of the day.

So, the question is, how much to spend today? If I buy the Behringer, I get all my routing needs met, and have the capacity to deal with a Delta 1010 when I upgrade my soundcard. Sure, the pres are less than ideal, but with the $600(Canadian) I would save on the board vs. the SOundcraft, that is a whole lot of rental gear for specialty situations. Or that $600 buys me a DMP3 and a VTB-1 plus....

So, I get to record all my stuff, have heaps of material to work on production, and someday I will have 10 songs taht are the shit I want, carefully arranged, notes taken in anal detail about signal paths and all the steps in EQ and compression and reverb settings etc. Then all I would have to do is spend the $600 I saved on the mixer on renting primo mics and pres for a week or two, and retrack the bits that were done through the cheaper pres. In the end, I think I will end up with better stuff, because option B is to wait another year to afford the Soundcraft mixer, in which time I haven't recorded a damn thing, and even then I fear I will still want better pres to be used on vox/acoustic instruments/mic'd guitar amps.
 
another item to add to the pondering list to avoid the dreaded Behringer... anyone use the Yamaha MG 16-4 mixer?
 
After lots of searching, I hear people say that the Yamaha MG* boards are excellent, with really good sounding pres (with the few comparisons stating they are better than Mackies). I'm REALLY interested in them myself because the price point really puts them in direct competition with Behringer, Samson, and others...

Still wish there was more information, though. I'm worried because i haven't heard anyone say a single thing bad about them. Invariably, after (and only after) I get it, I'll find a forum post revealing the SHOCKING SONIC TERROR that the board can cause. :)
 
cstockdale said:
So, the question is, how much to spend today?


Hmmm . . . let me think on this one, and I'll get back with you in a second.


So, I get to record all my stuff, have heaps of material to work on production, and someday I will have 10 songs taht are the shit I want, carefully arranged, notes taken in anal detail about signal paths and all the steps in EQ and compression and reverb settings etc. Then all I would have to do is spend the $600 I saved on the mixer on renting primo mics and pres for a week or two, and retrack the bits that were done through the cheaper pres. In the end, I think I will end up with better stuff, because option B is to wait another year to afford the Soundcraft mixer, in which time I haven't recorded a damn thing, and even then I fear I will still want better pres to be used on vox/acoustic instruments/mic'd guitar amps.

Still thinking . . . say, I have a great idea: Why don't you just go do everything you just said ? :D :D

Seriously, Cstock, if you're going to have conversations with yourself ; ie -- asking questions, only to answer them yourself a few sentences later, this isn't necessarily the place to do it. :D

This is really more like a place to go if/when you actually need other people's opinions and/or advice. I don't really see that happening. What I see is more like:

Cstock: What should I have for breakfast today? I would like everyone's input.

Keep in mind that I like eggs a lot, and they're healthy for me, I grew up on an egg farm, and I have an entire refrigerator full of them.

I mean, come to think of it, eggs would really make sense for me right now, because I'm really hungry for them, too. In fact, I have like a whole plate of them sitting right in front of me. Over-easy, scrambled, even hard-boiled. They smell really good.

So come on everyone . . . what should I eat? If I don't get an answer soon, I'm just going to have to go ahead and eat this hot, yummy plate of eggs that I just made for myself.
 
Chessrock, I appreciate your advice you have given me to date. I also appreciate that you are very experienced. I also know that you have a serious bias against budget gear. If I were to take all your advice I would have a good mic, and nothing to amplify its signal, and no way to route that signal to any sort of recording device. I am merely looking for people in a similar situation to the one I am in, torn between $$ on the one hand, and wanting to accomplish something worthwhile on the other hand. In case you hadn't noticed, I have received feedback from numerous other people who have made some good suggestions to me.

Maybe sometimes I work in a circular fashion, as I write the question the solution becomes apparent the more I go through it. I consider posting it, and frequently delete the question without posting it as I have answered the question already. Sometimes I want to know if my logic agrees with anyone else and if they have any further advise/criticism to offer. I don't see this as being any greater a character flaw than your rabid reaction to anything you so much percieve to be spam, whether it is useful info or not.

Kindly go fuck yourself for being such a patronizing asshole, will you? Have a nice day.
 
Id buy what you can afford and buy what you like. Gear are like the bones in your body. What works now, may not working the future and there isn't anything you can do about it. Its better to be recording with gear that gets the job done today rather than not doing anything. DMP3 or VTB-1 are both viable budget options that get the job done. If you wait you may never get there. I would probably get the VTB-1 because it cheaper. If you can get away with one channel and only use one channel the VTB-1 while more money per channel, still is cheaper. If you need to record 2 channel at the sametime then the DMP3 is more of what you'll need. You could get a ART pre and a VTB-1 for 2 choices of color for under $200 US if you do the E-Bay thing.
I don't mind you talking in circles, its how decisions are made for most people, looking for warning signs to change your position. Try writing out a budget and a list of gear you want within a given time. Try to ignore the newest fashion in cheap pre hype. Get something now as cheap as you can stand realizing your never going to be satisfied. Balance the gear, all cheap, then mix the cheap with mid priced, then mix the high end in so in the end you have experience and lots of choices.

SoMm
 
cstockdale said:
I also know that you have a serious bias against budget gear. [


I'm not sure who's posts you've been reading. I recommend the dmp3 all the time. That qualifies as budget. So does the Rane MS-1B that I always go around touting. I also recommend the Bellari RP-220 as an interesting piece, anything used by Symetrix (including the 528, which can usually be had for $150 or less) the DBX Project I EQ, Symetrix 501 compressor, the RNC, CAD mics . . . M-audio soundcards, etc. etc.

I am merely looking for people in a similar situation to the one I am in, torn between $$ on the one hand, and wanting to accomplish something worthwhile on the other hand.


And it sounds to me like you've got your solution all mapped out. Get what you can afford now . . . practice, refine, pre-produce, etc. Then rent some nicer gear when you're ready to record. Good idea. What are you looking for? Our verification? A metal? :D Your idea is fine. Go with it.

In case you hadn't noticed, I have received feedback from numerous other people who have made some good suggestions to me.


Yea, namely yourself. :D Honestly, though, it appears as though you're pretty oblivious to whatever anyone else has been saying, because you've already made up your mind what you're doing. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's a good idea if you have someone close by who rents decent gear. I've done the same thing countless times.

I don't see this as being any greater a character flaw than your rabid reaction to anything you so much percieve to be spam, whether it is useful info or not.

No one said it was a character flaw. All I was doing was making fun of you. Get some thicker skin.

Kindly go fuck yourself for being such a patronizing asshole

Go fuck yourself for asking redundant questions you already know the answer to.
 
chill man. I don't need a flame war, I have seen enough of those around here. All I was trying to deduce was how much of a preamp is going to make my mics sound their best, and at what point all I am doing is spending more money for no improvement given that the mics themselves aren't great.

I have hardly been oblivious to suggestions given to me, it is those suggestions that bring me to these choices. These are complex things, when your needs are
1)better preamps
2) better mixing/routing flexibility
3)more inputs than you currently have
4) the need to have a digital interface somewhere in the mix to use the S/PDIF ins of the soundcard you have if you choose not to get a better soundcard

Why have I posted numerous threads about it? Because this can be done with a better soundcard and/or a better mixer, a few stand alone pres, a digital converter plus pres or a mixer etc etc etc. I can't write the mother of all threads and get everyone to read it, that is why variants of this problem appear in this forum, in the general equipment forum, in the soundcard forum....



When you only have so many disposable dollars each month, the choices are much narrower. Especially here in Canada, we pay a lot more for most of the same gear.
 
Look, CStock . . . I'm not trying to bust your balls. Okay, maybe I am, but so far the very best advice / suggestion on this goes as follows:

My overall strategy is attempting something like the following:

use my budget mics, get the best matched pres for those mics, and work to record all my stuff I want to record, slave over the editing, arrangement, mix, and get everything as good as I can make it with the tools I have, and then, and only then, when I know exactly what part I need to play, I can then go and rent some serious gear (good mics, good pres), and say on one weekend do nothing but acoustic guitar parts, another weekend, nothing but vocals, and tailor my rentals to those particular bits that need doing.

Because in reality I know I cannot afford a Neve console, or an Avalon pre ever . But I can afford to rent them for a few days at a time.



And this suggestion was made by you in answer to your own question in the very first post.

That should just about do it. I can think of absolutely nothing else that anyone could add that would further verify, support, or be of any use if that's your strategy.

Again, it's like the breakfast analogy: What should I get for breakfast? I've already decided on pancakes, but what are your opinions? What the hell does it matter? :D If you like pancakes, and you've already decided on pancakes, then get the fouching pancakes! :D :D :D
 
Ooooh!

Put some cheddar cheese in it. And some smoked salmon and a little cream cheese. :D




When do we eat?:D :D
 
none of us know what we're doing. we just think we do. that's what makes it so much fun, and why some folks' mixes sound so much better to us than others. you might be way experienced, or have the techniques and tricks down, but with so many infinite ways to mix tracks, who's to say what's right and what's not? just get out there and record something. that's what it's all about.


by any means necessary.
wade
 
mrface2112 said:
. . . just get out there and record something. that's what it's all about.



My brother has been a writer for the last forty years or so. When I was in college, I wanted to be a writer just like him. So I asked him how to become a writer.

He looked at me and said "There are two kinds of people in the writing world. There are people who talk about writing, and there are people who write."
 
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