Behringer may have just taken the lead in "Best Bang/buck" mics

Sal,

Your comments are indeed very disturbing to me, since Behringer sells these as reference mics and they are supposed to be fairly neutral sounding and accurate. So when I read your comments, it does bother me and all the comments about "trusting Harvey's ears" don't mean shit if those are accurate results you're getting.

A few questions, though. Were all the mics in EXACTLY the same spot in the room when you tested them? Remember that omnis pick up a lot of the "room sound" and even a few inches will change the response in an uneven room. 4 feet out is a pretty significant distance and the room will definitely be a big part of the sound.

Also, were these run into different preamp channels for the test, or did you use the same channel for each mic, to asure consistency? When I record groups, I use the board preamps, but when I'm testing mics, I use the Great River MP-2 because both channels are absolutely identical, and calibrated. You might try switching the mics around to different channels and see if the differences stay with the mic or the channel.

I'm at a loss to explain your results, but some of it MAY be caused by the above factors.

Your comment regarding sensitivity is right on. A small condenser mic will not have as much output as a large condenser mic - that's why they make the larger condenser mics. But the ECM8000's that I have are way more sensitive than the Audix TR-40's that they copied. I run my trim controls at 7 o'clock for the Behringers as opposed to around 10 o'clock for the Audix.
 
Sal,
What about cables? Did you use the same cable for each? Or at least the same type?

Queue

ps - I'm not jumping on your shit here, just trying to get to the bottom of the differences observed in your test. In fact, I commend you for posting your results. It takes a bit of testicular fortitude to say "hey, the emporer isn't wearing any clothes...".
 
Queue,

Actually, I was fully dressed when I wrote my answer, but yes, I also commend Sal for standing up and saying "Hey, you guys are full of shit". It does take guts. But maybe between my questions and your question, we can come up with an answer as to why his results happened and it will be an eyeopener for all of us.
 
hmm

I didn't mean to say you guys were full of shit..I just was saying that I heard people saying these things were great..but I was less than impressed..although for $35, you can't beat that.

OK, so I mic'd from 4 feet only so I could negate the cardiod bass presence..but my room is very neutral..it's a concrete block basement with foam on the walls with canvas hung about a foot away from the foam..I had the speaker facing the wall, and the mic's all aim'd at the woofer from 4 feet..I used the same type of cable for each 8000 , except I used a 100ft'er on the SM57.
I *DID* run each thru a seperate channel on the mackie..but I just tried all the 8000s on the same channel..and well, same results...

As far as the omni thing..I originally had them about 10 feet away, just so I could also get a sense of my room through a mic and not ears...(and also for stereo recording)..I had hoped to use these for recording classical concerts with an omni and get really sweet results...but when I heard the awful colorations and totally different sound of each mic..so then I moved them to 4 feet away.
I have some MP3s that i recorded with them, so maybe you guys would care to listen..I'll try putting them on tripod, but my friend couldn't get the other mp3's I had on there so..maybe they will work for some but not all..







Yeah, it's copyrighted, but this is for educational use AND it's an excerpt, so it's all legal AFAIK under free use.
 
also

If those dont work for some reason (try picking 'save as'), then I put them on my RR webspace.

I was gonna plug in my bose acoustic wave, and play a classical CD, but I didn't feel like disconnecting it and dragging it to the studio.


I have to head out now, but I will try close mic'ing the speaker later and see what happens.

PS, 5 is the SM57..maybe I shoulda made it a guessing game :P






(I couldn't fit the last 8000)
 
gee i think i,ll let someone else go into bat next time hmmmm

looks like i said a tad too much o well silence from me

next time iam sure someoneelse will fit snugly into the armour

when comments are made all i tried to do is what i felt was right o well :confused:
 
OK, Sal,

Thanks for the added information and putting up the mp3's. This is all starting to make some sense now. Go ahead and use the mics to record classical music - you're gonna love 'em.

There were some serious flaws in your testing procedure (that will take me a while to explain in another post), but the bottom line is that there's nothing seriously wrong with your mics.

BTW, does your monitor speaker have a 6.5" speaker in it or an 8" speaker in it. It sounded like a 6.5" to me, but I'm not 100% sure. The tweeter is a 1" dome, right?
 
Harvey, I've been kind of noticing your postings the last week or so. Now this last post in combination with your photo takes away my last doubts....................you're that dude from starwars aren't you.

Man, I hope to grow to your level of experience some day. I allready trying to grow some beard and am going to buy some white paint tomorrow.
 
Before you run off "deifying" me, let's wait for Sal's answer - they could just as easily be 12" speakers with a small magnet that I'm hearing. Like in a typical home hi fi speaker setup.
 
ahh

Well, lemme know what I did wrong :) I'm all about fixing stuff.

my main concern was that all the mics sounded different..from my understanding of omnis, since they were all side by side facing the source, they shouldn't have all sounded different...?

Here's the info on the speaker I used:
Tweeter 3/4" Ferro-Fluid Cooled Semi-Dome
Midrange/Woofer 4" Ferro-Fluid Cooled Cone/ 8" Cloth Surround Magnetically Shielded
Suggested Amp. Power Min. 10 Watts Max. 140 Watts
Frequency Response 90 Hz - 20 kHz
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Dimensions (W * H * D) 10-1/2" * 16-3/16" * 12-1/2"
Weight 34 lbs. per pair
--

I WAS going to use the Bose Acoustic Wave since that thing just kicks ass..BUT, it is designed to toss sound all over the place, so that wouldn't have worked well at all..I could have mic'd my classical guitar, but I am still trying to teach myself how to play..and since I hate my voice, i wasn't gonna sing..and otherwise, I just do my keyboard thing..not a performer, always been the guy behind the scenes telling people what to do, making the magic happen..etc

---Sal

Thanks for the info btw :)
 
and

I bought tons of these things waaay back when I was setting up a 'poor man's ' home theatre..at $100 a pair, I bought 2 front, 2 rear, and another pair and used one of them as a center channel..for $300 that was a deal, and they don't sound half bad for the price..

here's the link:

http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi.exe/DsplyModel/?gSPK00010NS-A636



And Harvey, when you meant go ahead and record some classical music, did you mean 'really' record, or through a speaker again?

----Sal
 
Re: and

Guardian said:
Harvey, when you meant go ahead and record some classical music, did you mean 'really' record, or through a speaker again?
Sal,

I meant really record some music. The problem is that when you record from speakers in a non-anachoic room, the frequency response is all over the map - as much as +/- 10 dB variations in sound. Unless the mics are in exactly the same place, the response will be very different.

And when you play back that signal thru the same speakers, each pass doubles the problem frequencies. And the rest of the chain isn't "perfectly flat", so any deviations are also doubled there as well. In many cases, the "coloration" that's added can be pleasing, but in the case of recording speakers in a small room, that isn't the case.

Don't feel bad, I've done exactly the same thing and the logic is impeccable. You SHOULD be able to tell a lot about a mic by using it to record music from speakers, in theory. In actual practice, it's pretty useless. Most speakers are far from perfect radiators. That's why I was able to get pretty close on guessing what speaker size and type you were using for your tests - that sound I heard was the characteristics of your speaker, not the mic. The mic was showing up the flaws in the system.

Try this. Find the big thread with the "one mic over the shoulder technique" for recording acoustic guitar. Set up your mic and record a short passage of you playing live guitar. Now change to another of the ECMs set in the exact same position (that means unplug the first mic and put another mic in the same holder so that's the only difference), and record the same passage - through the same channel of your mixer. Try to sit in exactly the same position. A fraction of an inch can make a big difference in tests like these.

Do that for each of the Behringer mics, then listen to your results. The sound will be almost identical from mic to mic and the variations will be a lot less noticable, if there at all. Try listening back on a decent set of headphones, so that you don't excite the room nodes.
 
ECM 8000 on classical

I'm not sure if the Behringers will work well as a spaced pair of omnis on a classical date. I tried it on a solo Kawai baby grand last weekend and the mic's self noise was too high, had to swap them for an X-Y pair of SM81s. With the pres gain unchanged, the objectionable hiss disappeared when the 81s were swapped into the same chain. The sound suffered otherwise though. I experimented with the ECM8000s over the soundboard and 6 feet back, but the noise was always there and objectionable during quiet passages. I bought 'em for rock-n-roll overheads anyway, where they kill the 81s!
 
Noise is always a major factor to consider with very small diapragm condenser mics when recording a quiet source. I haven't compared the ambient noise levels between the ECM8000 and the TR-40 yet, but the output of the ECMs are around 10 dB hotter than the TR-40s.
 
I recently used a pair to rcord a chorus, wind ensemble and orchestra. XY configuration. They performed superbly and the finished product turned out great.
 
Im new to this forum although Ive been haunting it for a few months.I just want to thank Harvey for the heads up on these mics.I ordered a pair Thursday from American Musical Supply and I received them Friday(I love AMS!!).BTW AMS has the mics listed at $42.95ea but if you tell them 8th Street Audio is selling them for $35.95 they will match the price with out any bullshit(did I say I love AMS..oh yeah!).I havnt played with them much,just a quick check on acoustic(they sound pretty damm good!).Next weekend Im recording drums and will try them for overheads.Cant wait!Thanks again Harvey,and if you happen across any more bargains like this dont hesitate to pass them on to po' folk like me!!
 
I'm new to recording(as my title says) and I'm probably recording a band in the upcoming weeks. So I went right out and bought 2 of these(I got the store's last one so I have to wait a couple of days to get the other) to use on the drums. I've found that the one that I have now sounds good on electric guitar about 4 to 5 feet away from the amp too(I just gotta be careful because these look like they can't handle anything too loud!). I've ghosted for a few days here and when I learned more about Harvey(I'd heard about him/you before but not too much) and how respected he/you is/are I went out and bought them.
 
hokypokynose said:
I've found that the one that I have now sounds good on electric guitar about 4 to 5 feet away from the amp too(I just gotta be careful because these look like they can't handle anything too loud!).
As far as "handling loud", they should do just fine. Small omni condenser mics can hadle very loud signals pretty easy.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
As far as "handling loud", they should do just fine. Small omni condenser mics can hadle very loud signals pretty easy.

Really? I should have figured that considering they do well as drum overheads :D. I guess I need to check out the way I was doing it earlier because I was recieving quite a bit of distortion when I placed it where my 57 is used to being. I even made sure to turn my amp down a bit since I know(or think I do) that the ECM cant handle what my 57 can and my amp was quite loud. When I moved it out a few feet though, the distortion went away.

I did make sure that the levels on my mixer and my computer were well below 0 dB. Maybe my trim was too high. Though the green -20 light on my Mackie wasn't glowing too bright. Oh well. I guess I should just try again.
 
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