Any great alternative to the SM57 for the snare?

endserenading81

New member
I want to now record the snare with 2 mics, cause it's not coming in hard enough. I already have the SM57 cause I got it when I was first starting out and heard way to much about it. So NOW I'm doing my research on the next snare mic. Any suggestions guys? Condenser OR Dynamic. Or should I get another SM57 for the bottom? I would like to have variety though.
Thanks,
Rob
 
Sure, there are bizzillions of alternatives. A favorite would be Sennheiser MD421, which has many uses. Shure SM7B is fine, but it's big, and finding a place to put it on a kit can be a pain. I've done it, though, and it rocks. Somebody will chime in with the Beyerdynamic line, which I am less familiar with, but they build a highly respected line of dynamics. For cheap, Sennheiser e835, which is a pretty good vocal mic with a different flavor from the SM57/58. A mic very few will mention which works just fine on snare, as well as cabs and some vocals- AKG D770.
A note on condensers for snare. It can work, but it better have a pad, and less expensive condensers will often be a better choice, in case the drummer smacks it. I've used AKG C2000B and AKG C414B-ULS on the bottom of a snare with good effect, with a dynamic on top. Remember to reverse the phase on the bottom mic.-Richie
 
I've used a pair of classic C414's on the snare (top and bottom, the bottom mike with the phase inverted) with great results.

Quite a bit cheaper are the mini condensers that AKG makes specifically for drums; I'm not sure of the model number, but it's probably the C418. The drummer in my band has a set he uses live. Those are no-brainers to set up; just clip them on and record.
 
I bought an E/V ND168 (I think that was the model) called "The Snare Mic" once...I was so slick...I was going to replace my '57 on top.

I was wrong, that mic sucked. And E/V called it their snare mic! There are a lot of alternatives out there, but I'm finding the SM57 top / AT4033 bottom to be a nice combo.

The '57 just fits snare like a glove. I don't like the mic much after that.

War
 
endserenading81 said:
I want to now record the snare with 2 mics, cause it's not coming in hard enough. I already have the SM57 cause I got it when I was first starting out and heard way to much about it. So NOW I'm doing my research on the next snare mic. Any suggestions guys? Condenser OR Dynamic. Or should I get another SM57 for the bottom? I would like to have variety though.
Thanks,
Rob
My favorite snare mic is the Beyerdynamic M201.
 
My absolute all time favorite combination for snare drum involves THREE mics. An M201 on top and on bottom, and a 414 TL (with a ten dB pad) added to the top. Make sure you get the capsules of the two top mics as close as possible, and then experiment to find the exact right positions. Also, though people will tell you to flip the polarity switch on the bottom mic, they are only usually right. Try it both ways, and use the one which sounds best. You can replace either one of the 201s with 57s, or even both if you want. I just have a preference for the 201.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
guys... typical noob here
.How do you reverse the phase on a mic?!?!?
ne1 got a short definention of phase, i know that in stereo micing getting out of phase will lead to comb filtering.. but i dont even know what that is . heh
thanks
 
You reversethe polarity (wromgly refered to as phase) of the mic by hitting the phase button on your board or mic pre. Or by making a cable that is wired backwards.

The reason you need to reverse the polarity on the bottom mic is because, When you hit the drum, the head is moving away from the top mic and toward the bottom mic. When you combine those signals together, you will get some cancelation or comb filtering.

Come filtering sounds kind of like a flanger that doesn't sweep.
 
Beyer M201! I got one off eBay after reading a lot of praise for it here, and I've never regretted it. The hypercardiod pattern helps eliminate more hi-hat bleed than a 57 will, and overall seems to pick up more of the snare's crispness (at least to me!).

I have yet to try recording the bottom of the snare, but I'm about to reconfigure my drum mic set up and probably will try it out.

If you're recording digitally and don't have a phase reverse switch on your mixer, you can reverse the phase after the fact - assuming of course that you record the top and bottom of the snare as separate tracks.
 
Lots of large condenser mics work great on snare. MXL 990, Studio Projects C1, Neumann TLM 103, AKG 414 B-ULS, Oktava MK319, Red5 Audio RV8...
 
Wow... there are a whole lot of responses to wade through... FWIW, I have found that drum tuning and mic positioning seem to have even more influence on the end result than mic or pre selection, but that's not to say that mic and pre selection is totally unimportant [because they are, just not quite as critical in my work as placement].

I have never gotten a bottom snare mic to work for me worth a damn. Even after spending hours tuning and retuning the bottom snare head, trying all kinds of different snare strainers, from 20's to 14's to some of the weird spaced specialty strainers... the "undersnare" mic always sounds "broken" to me. Obviously, some folks seem to use it with great results, but I have found that with a good snare drum, good snare drum tuning, and careful microphone positioning that a bottom snare mic is absolutely unnecessary to get the "crack" you're trying to achieve.

Tuning is tuning, head selection is no minor part of tuning, and every kind of head sounds different. I certainly have some favorites for top snare heads, like the good ol' Remo "Ambassador", but I've seen brothers use all kinds of stuff with mixed results. The Remo "Ambassador" is kind of a standard and is more often than not the 'safe' bet. The Remo 'Power Stroke' head seems to be popping up a lot with a bunch of drummers, but I have kind of mixed feelings about them... I think they kinda lack a lot of the overtones I like to hear from a well tuned snare drum. While we're here... for 98% of the 'rawk' stuff I work on, tuning the snare drum to a "D" will usually give you results to die for.

For the most "crack" I have found you can get from a snare drum a Remo "diplomat" head on the bottom of the drum with a "14" strainer is usually the ticket. A "12" strainer works even better, but you usually have to order those many weeks in advance and they're not inexpensive. It seems that during the 80's hair metal crisis the "20" strainer became the standard... I find them a bit overly washy in terms of the after sizzle, but again, that could just be me.

On mic positioning... whew... options, options, options... I usually start with a mic 4-8" off the side of the drum, preferably with the H/H in the null of a Cardioid, Hyper Cardioid or Figure 8 pattern mic... with that mic aimed at the shell of the drum [between the top and bottom rim]. Often, a Shure 57 works like a charm in this position, but sometimes it sucks... depends on the drum and the tuning, the day, the atmospheric pressure and what I had for breakfast.

The Beyer M-201 is often a great alternative to the 57, a Groove Tubes GT-44 with the cardioid capsule will sometimes work like a charm, A Shure SM-81 can be absolute magic on some occasions, Josephson's work, even the occasion cheap Chinese lg. diaphragm condenser will work. I have even attained excellent results with an AKG C-414 [even the ULS and TL ones... the ones that pretty much suck for almost every other application], as well as a TLM-103 and a whole bunch of others... experiment, experiment, experiment.

There are times when the side of the drum positioning doesn't work as well as I'd like, at those times I will go to the more traditional "mic on the head of the drum where no ear would ever dare to go" mic'ing technique. First let me mention that there are two parts that are critical for you to pay attention to when you're mic'ing a drum in this manner. The center of the drum and the spot that I call "ground zero", which is where the drummer actually hits the snare drum when playing. With a right handed drummer is usually an inch or two northwest of the center of the drum.

For this kind of a thing I like to use two mics. The first is usually a dynamic, like a 57 or M-201, the second a small diaphragm FET condenser like an SM-81 or AKG 451 [with a 10 or 20 db pad on it]... though recently I have used things like the Joesphson C-42 in that application with stellar results. With the dynamic mic, what you're pretty much looking for is the "size/note" of the drum, the condenser mic is there to get you the "whack" and "snares" you're looking for [without sounding broken].

I usually have the dynamic mic come in like 1/8th to 1/4 inch over the rim, pretty much horizontal to the floor, and aimed at the center of the drum [most snare drums are angled, so sometimes you have to angle the head of the mic down a couple of degrees relative to the part of the mic with the connector, or move the mic to the other side of the H/H stand (which brings it in at a different angle, and is generally lower than where you usually snake a snare mic in... ya know, the "tom side" of the H/H stand) to get it to aim at the center of the drum properly... don't be afraid to experiment with very slight angle changes as they can make a huge difference!!].

The second mic, the small diaphragm condenser mic comes in at like a 30 degree angle relative to the first mic, their grills touching in the front with the condenser mic directly over the dynmic mic, aimed at "ground zero" will usually net you "crack" for days. Sometimes a little EQ on this mic is a help though I generally try to avoid any EQ, it's not always possible. Scallop a little mids from this [find the note of the drum and bring it down a bit allowing the dynamic mic to grab this part of the sound... they usually handle it better than the condenser... usually the 400-1kHz range, +/- like a 1/4 octave], maybe add a smidgeon of upper mids, ya know like that 4-6k range, relatively small bandwidth, like a third of an octave or a tad less... not much, maybe a db or two, just a tad to bring the snares a bit more forward.

All of this, no matter what mic you use, will not work worth a damn if the drummer sucks. Usually, a good drummer won't be behind bad sounding drums. I don't know if it's the way they hit the drums or they just have a tendency to gravitate towards drums that don't suck... but I have found in my travels that more often than not, all drum sound problems can be traced directly back to the operator of the drum kit... though I have tuned more than one "famous" dude's drum kit.

...and finally... we get to the "don't put great mics on drums because they might get hit" thing. If you're working with a drummer that is inaccurate with their attack that they could potentially hit a mic... there isn't a damn thing you can do about the drum sound. It is undoubtedly going to suck ass. Where the drummer hits the drum is a major, major, major contributor to the sound of the drum. If the drummer isn't seriously consistent, there ain't jack shit you can do to save the sound except blow a sample of a good sounding drum. The best drummers I know will end up with "ground zero" being about an inch in diameter... the mediocre drummer I know will have like a 2" "ground zero", the best drummer I ever recorded, his "ground zero" was literally no more than a 1/2" in diameter... I mean this brother was consistent, consistent, consistent... had feel for days and a tone anyone would look like a genius trying to record.

All sounds start at the source, and while we'd like to think that if we throw equipment at the problem we can magically fix the problem... that's bullshit. The equipment manufacturers will have you believe that you can indeed do alchemy if you use their widget over their competitor's widget, but the fact of the matter is that as recording engineers our job description is limited to taking variations of air pressure and storing them so they can be combined with other stored examples of other variations in air pressure later on. Nowhere in the engineers handbook does it say that we are ever supposed to turn water into wine.

Best of luck with all you do.
 
Fletcher said:
I have never gotten a bottom snare mic to work for me worth a damn.

Tuning is tuning, head selection is no minor part of tuning, and every kind of head sounds different.

On mic positioning... whew... options, options, options... I usually start with a mic 4-8" off the side of the drum

All sounds start at the source, and while we'd like to think that if we throw equipment at the problem we can magically fix the problem... that's bullshit.

Nowhere in the engineers handbook does it say that we are ever supposed to turn water into wine.

Those are all VERY good points.

I think that bottom snare mics are really only necessary on certain kinds of snare drums, where the sound of the snare "crack," for whatever reason, doesn't make it up through the drum to a mic right above it.

If it's really not the drum, it COULD be due to the fact that the snare mic is just crammed right into a bad spot on the head. Then you end up with a big "poomph" noise, and very little snare sound. Again, that goes back to starting with good mic positioning.

From what I've seen, lots of people seem to be more successful with a mic on the top, and a second mic on the SIDE, then with a second mic on the bottom. Always experiment with positioning! Mics don't necessarily hear what you hear, so the only way you can find out what you can get is to move them around.

If you want to make a keeper recording, then you should ALWAYS have nice, new heads. It's also a good idea to avoid using heads that came with the drums. They're almost always cheap and crappy. I mean, if you bought them last week, that doesn't mean you need another set already, but if they are months and months, or even years old, switch those suckers out.

After good heads comes tuning, which is equally important. If you don't know how to tune drums up good for the sound you are looking for, then read this:

http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/

Fletcher said:
It seems that during the 80's hair metal crisis the "20" strainer became the standard...

Lol...
 
As far as I can tell [with the possible exception of the outter head on the kik drum] the heads provided with a new set of drums are purely there for cosmetic purposes... I would highly suggest that the owner of the shiny new drum kit punt them immediately and put on a real set of heads!!

As always... YMMV
 
Wow, this thread got bumped from the past.

While we're talking about recording snare, one thing I've enjoyed lately to get a bigger snare sound is to bring an SM57 maybe .75" inside the hoop and point it down at the outer edge of the top head from maybe .75" away. All you're going to get for the most part is the ring, which can work well to give a very big and life like sound by blending to taste. It's a nice option to have during mixdown anyhow.

Sort of gives you that Jack Johnson "Brushfire Fairytales" snare ring if you need that sort of thing. Compressing the heck out of it can be interesting as well.

War
 
Recording Engineer did a low-tech comparison on snare and 10" tom in his studio. We used his M201 and SM57, along with my Audix D4, ATM23HE and ATM25.

The M201 was the "reference" mic. Three at a time were grouped side by side, high end of the snare, and pointing at the impact point.

The M201 was very natural and tight.
The ATM23 was brighter, had more "cut through" and tight snap.
The SM57 had less stick noise but still had good tone.
The ATM25 was nasal, midrangey and sounded compressed.

To my ear, the differences were slight. RE agreed but could tell the differences better than I.

All sounded like snare. The M201 and ATM23 controlled bleed much better due to the hypercardiod pattern.

On 10" tom:
The SM57 was very tight and good tone.
The ATM23 had more stick attack, good tone.
The D4 had lots of stick attack and good tone.
The M201 was same as ATM23 and D4, not distiguishable
The ATM25 sounded dead compared to the others
 
I've not used the M201 so disregard my opinion to a degree ... but I've had more success with Senn e835 and/or AKG C1000S than with SM57 or any other cheap dynamic I've tried.

Can I just say that Fletcher's first answer should already be printed and pinned onto your bathroom door, to be read and re-read whilst on the loo with no other distractions ... ! (That was a compliment!)
 
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