Keyboard Audio Set-Up - Help!

Robert27191

New member
Hi All,

First post for some time, and I'm quite sure I'll get some of the terminology wrong!

I currently have a Kurzweil SP4-8 and am looking to upgrade in favour of a more realistic action.

I have been back and forth with the idea of a silent piano for some time, but decided that it isn't the right option. Down the road I'd like to have an acoustic upright as well as a DP for recording, but I don't think the silent option is for me.

I am very attracted to the Kawai VPC-1. Firstly - thoughts? I know there are many reviews out there, but just wondering if anyone reading this has any thoughts to share.

Main question: I know the VPC-1 has no inbuilt sounds. I have Logic Pro and a few other DAWs, and would have no problem using the VPC-1 purely as a controller.
However, there are times when I just want to turn it on, sit down and play - and for this the Kurzweil is great. It has many sounds, and is hooked up to speakers.
I would ideally like a way of having this ability with the VPC-1 and so my question is divided into two parts.

1 - I know there used to be an abundance of sound modules that could be used with controllers. Are they still around/current/widely used - and how would my set up have to run in that instance? VPC>Module>Speakers/Headphones? Any you could suggest?

2 - Is there a way of me hooking up the VPC-1 through midi-midi to the Kurzweil, so that I'm playing the VPC-1, but getting the sounds of the Kurzweil from speakers/headphones? Again, what would that set-up be?

Thanks so much for any advice, and sorry for the long-windedness!
 
If you connect a keyboard controller to your computer, you should be able to play virtual instruments with it regardless of whether you're actively recording the sound to tracks-- you just set up the track(s) as though you were going to record (i.e., select the desired MIDI In port and virtual instrument), but then don't start recording. Note that some DAWs might require you to arm a track before it will send the MIDI input to the virtual instrument.

If you don't want to connect the controller to your computer, you can certainly connect it to a sound module-- which includes hooking it up to your Kurzweil and using that as your sound module. The only trick there (aside from connecting the MIDI Out port of the controller to the MIDI In port of the sound module) is making sure that the controller's MIDI Transmit Channel is set to the same channel number as the sound module's MIDI Receive Channel-- and that shouldn't be an issue if the sound module is a 16-channel multitimbral device, since it will receive all 16 MIDI channels anyway. Another issue is being able to send Control Change and Program Change events to the sound module, which any decent keyboard controller should be able to handle with ease, although you'll of course want to study its user guide to learn how to program its assignable controls or switch between any preset configurations it might have.
 
If you connect a keyboard controller to your computer, you should be able to play virtual instruments with it regardless of whether you're actively recording the sound to tracks-- you just set up the track(s) as though you were going to record (i.e., select the desired MIDI In port and virtual instrument), but then don't start recording. Note that some DAWs might require you to arm a track before it will send the MIDI input to the virtual instrument.

Thanks - maybe I wasn't clear, my apologies. The DAW side of things I'm happy with and understand. The issue is that *if* I swap to the VPC-1, or any other sound-less controller, I want to find a way of just being able to switch it on and play, without the need for PC and virtual instruments.

If you don't want to connect the controller to your computer, you can certainly connect it to a sound module-- which includes hooking it up to your Kurzweil and using that as your sound module. The only trick there (aside from connecting the MIDI Out port of the controller to the MIDI In port of the sound module) is making sure that the controller's MIDI Transmit Channel is set to the same channel number as the sound module's MIDI Receive Channel-- and that shouldn't be an issue if the sound module is a 16-channel multitimbral device, since it will receive all 16 MIDI channels anyway. Another issue is being able to send Control Change and Program Change events to the sound module, which any decent keyboard controller should be able to handle with ease, although you'll of course want to study its user guide to learn how to program its assignable controls or switch between any preset configurations it might have.

This is more what I'm thinking about. Would the sound module have an aux out to speakers? How would I produce the sound from the module?


TIA
 
Both the Kurzweil and Kawai have DIN midi in and out sockets.

So a simple option is to get a DIN midi cable, plug it into the midi out on the Kawai, and the other end into the midi in on the Kurzweil. With luck, both will have a default midi set to omni, so you should be able to play the Kawai and hear the Kurzweil straight away.
 
Both the Kurzweil and Kawai have DIN midi in and out sockets.

So a simple option is to get a DIN midi cable, plug it into the midi out on the Kawai, and the other end into the midi in on the Kurzweil. With luck, both will have a default midi set to omni, so you should be able to play the Kawai and hear the Kurzweil straight away.

Gecko zzed, thanks a lot. Being a complete noob on the technology side of it, I assume both boards would be switched on, with the speakers connected to the Kurzweil? Then with the DIN connecter, it should be that simple? Would there not be any other setting up required?
 
If you're using the Kurzweil as a sound module but it doesn't have built-in speakers, you'll need to have its audio output(s) going to one or more external speakers (one for mono, two for stereo). Do you already have speakers or monitors or headphones that you use for playing the Kurzweil now? If so, none of that should change, you'd just be using the VPC-1 or other controller to drive the Kurzweil. :)
 
If you're using the Kurzweil as a sound module but it doesn't have built-in speakers, you'll need to have its audio output(s) going to one or more external speakers (one for mono, two for stereo). Do you already have speakers or monitors or headphones that you use for playing the Kurzweil now? If so, none of that should change, you'd just be using the VPC-1 or other controller to drive the Kurzweil. :)

Hi again SeaGtGruff,

My current set-up is one of two options.

1) For recording, I have the USB from the Kurzweil into my macbook pro.
2) For playing and jamming, I have monitors hooked up to the Kurzweil and voila...or I just plug in headphones like you say.

This being the case, would it be simply a case of plugging the DIN cable from the VPC into the Kurzweil, and having the speakers/headphones connected as they are at present? Could the sounds still be controlled via the Kurzweil as now?
 
Connect speakers to Kurzweil

Connect VPC to Kurzweil via DIN midi cable

Turn everything on

Play VPC

You should hear Kurzweil
 
^^^^^ As gecko zzed said.

If the sound is going to be coming out of the Kurzweil then there's no reason to change anything about the way you have it connected up to everything else.

All you'd be doing is connecting a controller to it via MIDI so the controller can send it MIDI messages-- Note On/Off events, Program Change events, Control Change events, Pitch Bend events, or any other types of MIDI events that the controller is able to generate.

You'd still be able to play the Kurzweil as usual, at the same time as you're playing on the keyboard controller. Or, if you wanted, you could set the Kurzweil's Local Control to Off, which means that nothing you play on the Kurzweil will make a sound, just what you send it from the controller. So you could go either way with it. If you leave the Kurzweil's Local Control set to On, you can play different voices on the Kurzweil and the controller-- e.g., use MIDI channels 1, 2, and 3 on the Kurzweil to play a split plus a layered voice (assuming it can do that, which is pretty standard on a keyboard), and then send MIDI events from the controller to the Kurzweil on channel 4. And if the controller can do splits and layers that can be assigned to specific MIDI channels, you could even play more than just one extra voice on the controller.
 
Thanks Gecko and SeaGT,

So if I understand it right, I could be playing the Kawai, sending the information to the Kurzweil - but also still be playing the Kurzweil at the same time? Ie - the Kawai doesn't have any pitch bend/mod wheels - so could I play a chord on the Kawai and then use the mod wheel on the Kurzweil at the same time? And even play one set of notes on the Kawai, and an entirely different set of notes on the Kurzweil - at the same time?

Also, how does one go about setting the keyboards to the same MIDI channel?
 
I could be playing the Kawai, sending the information to the Kurzweil - but also still be playing the Kurzweil at the same time?

Yes.

Ie - the Kawai doesn't have any pitch bend/mod wheels - so could I play a chord on the Kawai and then use the mod wheel on the Kurzweil at the same time?

Yes, as long as the Kurzweil's pitch bend and mod wheels are set to the same channel that the Kawai is transmitting on. [EDIT: I assume that they'll affect all 16 channels simultaneously by default, but I believe you can also program different zones to respond to them.]

And even play one set of notes on the Kawai, and an entirely different set of notes on the Kurzweil - at the same time?

Yes, either with the same voice* if the notes from the two keyboards are being played on the same MIDI channel, or with different voices* if they're on different MIDI channels.

(* Just to clarify, I say "voice" when I'm referring to one of the preset instrument sounds, because I have Yamaha keyboards and that's what Yamaha calls them. Other manufacturers may use other terms-- e.g., Casio calls them "tones." On synths they're generally called "patches," and in MIDI parlance they're usually called "programs." Looking at the Musician's Guide for the SP4-8, it appears that Kurzweil calls them "programs.")

Also, how does one go about setting the keyboards to the same MIDI channel?

The Kurzweil SP4-8 is a 16-channel multitimbral instrument, so it's set up by default to send and receive MIDI data on all 16 MIDI channels at once. However, you can set up different zones-- e.g., for playing splits and layers-- and can assign a specific MIDI channel to each zone, as described in Chapter 8 of the Musician's Guide. (By the way, if you don't have the PDF versions of all the SP4-8's documents, I recommend that you download them from the Support section of Kurzweil's web site, because PDF documents are a lot easier to search through and find information in.)

The Kawai transmits on only one MIDI channel, and its Owner's Manual doesn't say anything about how to set the channel, but refers to a VPC Editor program. I've installed that software (which will run in "demo" mode without having a VPC1 connected) and there's a screen where you can select the MIDI transmit channel. So I guess you must connect the VPC1 to your computer so you can use the VPC Editor to program the VPC1 as desired, after which you can disconnect it and use it normally.
 
The Kurzweil SP4-8 is a 16-channel multitimbral instrument, so it's set up by default to send and receive MIDI data on all 16 MIDI channels at once. However, you can set up different zones-- e.g., for playing splits and layers-- and can assign a specific MIDI channel to each zone, as described in Chapter 8 of the Musician's Guide. (By the way, if you don't have the PDF versions of all the SP4-8's documents, I recommend that you download them from the Support section of Kurzweil's web site, because PDF documents are a lot easier to search through and find information in.)

The Kawai transmits on only one MIDI channel, and its Owner's Manual doesn't say anything about how to set the channel, but refers to a VPC Editor program. I've installed that software (which will run in "demo" mode without having a VPC1 connected) and there's a screen where you can select the MIDI transmit channel. So I guess you must connect the VPC1 to your computer so you can use the VPC Editor to program the VPC1 as desired, after which you can disconnect it and use it normally.

SeaGt you are a star.

Do you mean that because the Kawai only transmits on one channel, I have to make sure the Kurzweil is only receiving on that one channel? Or is it the reverse of this - because the Kurzweil can receive on 16, and the Kawai only has one, the Kurzweil will receive the MIDI on its default settings, ie receiving on all 16 channels?

If this is the case, what would I need the VPC editor for? I understand about the touch curve and settings you can change with the editor, but with regard to the MIDI issue, how does that relate?

Thanks.
 
The Kawai transmits on channel 1 by default, unless you change it with the editor. The Kurzweil receives all 16 channels by default, so you don't need to tell the Kurzweil that you want to receive channel 1, or any other channel you've set the Kawai to transmit on.

I think the Kurzweil uses channel 1 by default as well, unless you've set up zones for splits and layers and have selected specific channels for each zone.

So by default you should be able to play notes using the same program on both keyboards.

If you want to play a different program on each keyboard then you'll have to either change the Kawai's transmit channel, or change the channel used by the Kurzweil for whichever zone(s) you're using.

Also, you can define and save a variety of setups on the Kawai (using the companion software), such that you can switch between setups when you want. And I presume that you can likewise define and save a variety of setups on the Kurzweil. So not only should you have a lot of flexibility about how you use the two keyboards together, but you should be able to change their setups while playing them by simply pressing some buttons-- I haven't studied the manuals in any depth, so I can't tell you which buttons off the top of my head, but you can look in the manuals to see.
 
Thanks for all the various replies. It's very gratifying people take the time to pass on expertise.

I know this is slightly changing direction, however over the weekend I have taken time to look at a few other models. I do understand the subtle differences between the various actions (RM3, GF etc) and appreciate there are subtle differences to each.

However, I have read up on the MP11 and am interested in this also. I recognise it's a fair increase in price, but with all of the onboard sounds and customisability a stage piano needs.

Would it be fair to say that the MP11 is the stage piano version of the VPC-1? I know they don't have precisely the same action (the MP11 supposedly has a one 'better' version of the action) - but assuming they are very similar, would this be fair?

Are there any known issues with the GF action? - note, not the GF2.

Many thanks as ever.
 
Just to be clear, so there are no misunderstandings on your part:

I don't classify my comments as "expertise" by any stretch of the imagination, and I have no wish to intentionally or unintentionally mislead you or anyone else about the supposed extent of my abilities or the supposed breadth of my knowledge. I just want to have some fun tinkering with keyboards, soft synths, and DAWs. I'm strictly a hobbyist, and in all honesty I'm not much of a keyboardist as far as my playing skills (no false humility there, just brutal truth). My experience in the field of music, keyboards, MIDI, and DAWs is very limited-- I took piano lessons as a kid (but I didn't apply myself at them), I had a Farfisa Matador organ back in high school (but I never did much with it), and then I completely abandoned my musical dreams for several decades. I didn't rekindle my interest in keyboards and synths again until just a few years ago, and I'm basically just dabbling and tinkering about during the second childhood of my old age. :)

I have zero experience with Kurzweil and Kawai products, except by reputation and what I hear from other people. The MP11 does look like a really nice stage piano, but I don't think it would be fair to say that it's the stage piano version of the VPC-1, because they aren't the same at all-- one's just a MIDI keyboard controller that can transmit on a single channel, and the other's an actual multitimbral musical instrument with impressive features and capabilities. If you actually meant how their keybeds and key actions compare, I don't know how similar or dissimilar they are on that account. The MP11 sounds like it's got a really nice keyboard-- all wood, and purportedly having "the longest pivot" (but the longest of which keyboards?). I know from reading the posts of professional keyboardists that pivot is one thing that they gripe about when it's too short, because then it's harder to get decent playability out of the black keys when you're playing in a key that's heavy on black keys, where you're likely to play higher up on the keys. But I have no idea how well the MP11 actually plays in those situations, or whether there are any known issues with its GF action, etc.

You might want to ask about the MP11 in a forum where professional keyboardists hang out-- e.g., The Keyboard Corner - MusicPlayer Forums.
 
Thanks. I realise it's not a black-and-white question, as they are entirely different instruments built to satisfy different audiences, but I was asking regarding the fact they both appear to have 'the best/most realistic piano action' - but one is purely a controller, the other is a stage piano.

I want to be sure about whichever model I get, and want to know if I'll be sacrificing the best action (VPC1) for onboard sounds/everything else (MP11), or whether the action in the MP11 is every bit as good.
 
I honestly don't know how their keybeds compare. As much as the VPC-1 costs, I'd certainly expect it to have a fantastic keybed. But then the MP11 is even more expensive-- since it's an actual instrument with sounds, effects, and other features-- so I'd also expect it to have a fantastic keybed. If you can't find any nearby brick-and-mortar stores that have one or both and will let you try in-store, or anyone with personal experience with either one that they can share with you, maybe you could check out or ask about earlier models? Failing that, before you buy anything make certain you'll be able to return it at no cost to you for a full refund if you don't like it after all.
 
Well, whichever of the two Kawais you decide to get (if you do get one of them), I'll definitely be green with envy! :)
 
So.

I visited Forsyths in Manchester, and had the opportunity to play the following three models:

Kawai CA97 (with the Grand Feel II - they didn't have anything with GF), the Roland RD 800 and the Casio GP300, which has an action created in collaboration with Bechstein. For the sake of this, I'm going to use the GFII as equalling the GF, although we know there are differences.

The Kawai felt the most realistic of the three in terms of key surface. The texture of the white keys - to my untrained feel - was the closest to a real piano. I'm not at all keen on the ebony feel, which seems a little DIY, but aside from that it was very good. I know that the GF doesn't have the ebony feel, so happy days!

The Roland was an absolute delight to play. It's lightweight, responsive, well laid out and certainly has the been LCD screen of the three. It was fun to sit and dabble with, but at the end of the day it simply doesn't feel like a piano. Moving on.

Between the Casio and the Kawai, there really wasn't a huge amount to choose from. The Casio was certainly a lighter action than the Kawai, but by using the virtual technician on the Kawai this might be a fairly negligible difference. I didn't have the opportunity to try this out.

However, one thing is for absolute certain. I use the same few pieces on each DP that I try out. The reason for this is that a) they are pieces I know back to front and so I can focus on the action, rather than my fingers and b) to make a fair comparison.

The piece I use to test out the speed and ease of repetition of the action is Billy Joel's Angry Young Man. For those who don't know it, check Youtube for 'Billy Joel - Prelude/Angry Young Man' and you'll realise why! The Kawai was pretty hard work to get the keys back into place and get the repetition going - as most DP's and pianos are. The Casio, however, was like a hot knife through butter. It was the easiest piano I think I have ever tried to play that piece on. I went back and forth between the Kawai and the Casio a few times to make certain - and I was bowled over. The action was so fast I had no problem getting through that machine gun opening riff.

I think I'm sold on the Kawai, but as it's going to be a few till I order in any case, could anyone share any knowledge/experience/tips on the Kawai v the Roland and the Casio? The Roland utilises Roland's PHA-4 action. I'm really interested to know if anyone has played these other two, and if so what you thought.

Many thanks as ever for you advice and hope this mini review was of interest.
 
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