The New Tone Thread

Sky Blue Lou said:
Greg - Another oddball stupid question - Are two cabs better than one? lol Is it louder (I wouldn't think) more "massive" - pushing more air? What's it feel like standing in front of that? Are you using protection? (ear protection - lol)
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Two cabs are gonna be somewhat louder than a single cab simply because you have more cone-area to push air ...... but it should only be a little bit louder because with a transformer tapped amp the amp puts out about the same wattage ..... just spread out between more speakers.

I'm interested in Gregs' response 'cause I don't really remember from my loud days but mainly it just sounds bigger rather than louder.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I'm interested in Gregs' response 'cause I don't really remember from my loud days but mainly it just sounds bigger rather than louder.
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That's kinda what I'm thinking but no clue - never had the pleasure. I was always "Too fucking loud, dude" for every band I was ever in playing through 2x12 combos. God forbid I popped for a 4x12 much less multiples.
 
Lt. Bob said:
one thing you have to consider with the ISO cab is how much volume of air is in the cab behind the speaker?
That's really crucial as it has a lot to do with how big it sounds.
For instance ...... with a 4x12 you have a lot of airspace inside the cab ..... even if you disconnect all bu ta single 12 that speaker has all that volume of air in the cab.

If you read anything about cab design you'll find out that the volume of air in a closed back cab dramatically affects the sound and even affects the frequency response of the speaker in it.
In fact, not all 12s 'want' the same airspace. The speakers 'Q' is important and can have one 12 'wanting' a different airspace than a different 12 might.

So if the volume of air backloading the speaker is too small then the speaker is, for lack of a better word, constrained and can't belt out the lower freqs like it should while in the right sized cab, the cab itself reinforces those lower freqs making the speaker sound bigger than it is.

I don't know the volume of that ISO cab but I bet that's part of your problems with it.
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Right on Bob...I know the ISO cab I have now (the Randall) is a lot smaller than the one I built, so, what you've explained to me here makes a lot of sense....The home-made ISO had more space to let the speaker do what it's supposed to, the Randall is much smaller, so it can't....So, like everything I've been doing with my toans, it's a compromise/trade-off for now...

Maybe all the Roxul I've got stuffed in the bottom of the Randall ISO cab is actually hurting the sound more than it's helping??? I might pull some of it out tonight & give it a shot...The ISO cab is for when I can't use my 4x12 late at night, so I really need to get better at using that thing...I can use my 4x12 at times, but not all the time....Time is something I don't have a lot of either with the hours I work....

Hmmm....maybe I'll try some low-volume clips tonight with the 4x12 just to see how that does, & how much noise I can get away with over here....I do know for a fact, I can't crank either of my amps with the 4x12 after work, I'd have to police here in minutes....hahaha


So, here's another little clip, I did a full-mix this time to see how the guitars sound with drums & bass....Of course, they're boxy, but don't seem to be as bad as the last couple attempts....

Signal chain:
LP > DSL/Chupa > Greenback ISO cab > '57

These are about the exact same settings I used on the last clips, only difference is I turned the resonance all the way off on both amps.....

Chupa/DSL mix

Lemme know what you guys think....off to work....sucks working Saturday night, but it's overtime....
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
Greg - Another oddball stupid question - Are two cabs better than one? lol Is it louder (I wouldn't think) more "massive" - pushing more air? What's it feel like standing in front of that? Are you using protection? (ear protection - lol)
Click to expand...

Lt. Bob said:
Two cabs are gonna be somewhat louder than a single cab simply because you have more cone-area to push air ...... but it should only be a little bit louder because with a transformer tapped amp the amp puts out about the same wattage ..... just spread out between more speakers.

I'm interested in Gregs' response 'cause I don't really remember from my loud days but mainly it just sounds bigger rather than louder.
Click to expand...

Right, Lt Bob pretty much nailed it. It's a little louder with the added cab, but really it's the bigness and fullness that is enhanced. This particular club is a big huge concrete room and they don't always have a soundguy equipped to mic the cabs or stage wedges for anyone but the singer. Drums and vocals get mic'd, Bass goes DI, and the guitars sometimes just gotta be cranked. I actually prefer it that way. Lol. Knowing this venue's reputation for being spotty on the sound, I bring two cabs just in case. At more reputable venues I use just one 4x12. At this place my two 4x12s are plenty capable of filling that room un-mic'd. But he had mics last night, so we mic'd one of my cabs, but I still ran em both loud anyway. Fuck it. Soundguy said it was fine

I put them side-by-side because it will literally blow my ears out in vertical stack mode. I don't want that shit pointed at my ears. I wear ear protection when drumming, but usually not when playing guitar. With the cabs at ground level the sound passes right under my head and out into the club. It's like standing waist deep in rushing water. You feel the chaos around your legs, but your upper half is calm and stable. And the sound is naturally darker when you're up above it so it's loud but it's not a bunch of high end bashing your eardrums. It's more like a steady pressure. It's tolerable. My ears are fine. I stay away from monitors and my own amps. The people standing in front? I guarantee their ears are ringing today.
 
minerman said:
Right on Bob...I know the ISO cab I have now (the Randall) is a lot smaller than the one I built, so, what you've explained to me here makes a lot of sense....The home-made ISO had more space to let the speaker do what it's supposed to, the Randall is much smaller, so it can't....So, like everything I've been doing with my toans, it's a compromise/trade-off for now...

Maybe all the Roxul I've got stuffed in the bottom of the Randall ISO cab is actually hurting the sound more than it's helping??? I might pull some of it out tonight & give it a shot...The ISO cab is for when I can't use my 4x12 late at night, so I really need to get better at using that thing...I can use my 4x12 at times, but not all the time....Time is something I don't have a lot of either with the hours I work....

Hmmm....maybe I'll try some low-volume clips tonight with the 4x12 just to see how that does, & how much noise I can get away with over here....I do know for a fact, I can't crank either of my amps with the 4x12 after work, I'd have to police here in minutes....hahaha


So, here's another little clip, I did a full-mix this time to see how the guitars sound with drums & bass....Of course, they're boxy, but don't seem to be as bad as the last couple attempts....

Signal chain:
LP > DSL/Chupa > Greenback ISO cab > '57

These are about the exact same settings I used on the last clips, only difference is I turned the resonance all the way off on both amps.....

Chupa/DSL mix

Lemme know what you guys think....off to work....sucks working Saturday night, but it's overtime....
Click to expand...

To me this is better. The tubby flubby is gone. So that's good. You could probably sneak a little of the resonance back in, but just a touch. Don't go diming it again. Now what I'm hearing seems to be exactly what the problem is - small cab. No space. No big air movement. It sounds kind of stiff and lifeless. Not bad, but it does lack the character of a big cab shoving air around. So how do you get that sound with a smallish iso box? Maybe removing some of the stuffing like you said will help. Try a "darker" mic position.
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
Great description. The chaos around your legs...
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Lol. That's what it is. It's pants flapping power. But I try to be smart about it. I want to blow people's heads off, but I don't want it to be sonically unpleasant. I take care to dial the amp to the room. Last night's settings had a healthy amount of bass and mids with the highs and presence rolled back a little.
 
putting both cabs on the ground is sort of a high end filter a little bit because peoples' legs absorb some of the highs as it goes out into the club plus you get a second cab that's in the boundary effect of the floor which bumps up the bottom end.

So it helps get that big full sound without having the spiky high end zinging out to everyone's' ears.

Greg_L said:
the guitars sometimes just gotta be cranked. I actually prefer it that way.
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I prefer to get my sound from the stage unless the venue is just too damned big. As long as I'm loud enough and not too loud I don't care if I'm in the PA ........ soundmen want me to turn down so they can control it but I'll ask, "Am I too loud?"They'll say, "No , but you're not in the PA" .... :D

You never freakin' know what a sound guys gonna do to your tone.
 
Lt. Bob said:
putting both cabs on the ground is sort of a high end filter a little bit because peoples' legs absorb some of the highs as it goes out into the club plus you get a second cab that's in the boundary effect of the floor which bumps up the bottom end.

So it helps get that big full sound without having the spiky high end zinging out to everyone's' ears.
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Yup, I usually like my cabs on their wheels though to decouple them from the floor. The low end is too much when they sit flat on their bottoms with some of the flimsy stages I play on.

I prefer to get my sound from the stage unless the venue is just too damned big. As long as I'm loud enough and not too loud I don't care if I'm in the PA ........ soundmen want me to turn down so they can control it but I'll ask, "Am I too loud?"They'll say, "No , but you're not in the PA" .... :D

You never freakin' know what a sound guys gonna do to your tone.
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I know dude. They're mostly terrible. I try to communicate as much as possible with the soundguy before a show. They're pretty much all stupid and I despise the necessary evil that they are, but I try to be friendly so they don't fuck me up. This guy last friday asked me which cab sounds better and do I have a preferred speaker, so he at least had that stuff in mind. That's a good sign to me. and he used an MD421, which is a nice mic. But then he halfassed on the monitors and stuff, so I have no idea what it actually sounded like out in the club. All I could hear was drums and myself. I'd rather be way too loud on stage and have to turn down than not be loud enough and have my sound "enhanced" through the mains. Fuck that. Of course this only applies to modest local bars and clubs. When I play the Super Dome I'm sure things will be different.
 
Ok, been fucking with this for a couple hours or so (the mix, not the toanz...), recorded some new guitar tracks for the little mix I did yesterday with the 4x12....volume, lots of volume....hahaha....Actually had the Chupa pretty much cranked, but it was in the 80's mode, so it's not as loud as the regular plexi mode...The DSL was on about 4 or so, & I have to admit, this a a loud fuckin' amp, lots of headroom, & to me, it sounds great....Not better than the Chupa (neither is better IMHO), just different, which is what I wanted...

The drums on this are my "album" sounds, so lemme know what you think of those too....The programming/"performance" is just kinda threw together, but, this is about how my drums on the "album" will sound...

Instead of typing out the settings, I took some pics of both amps' settings too....

Chupa/DSL mix 10-26-2014





Lemme know what you guys think....going out for a while, I've actually got a date tonight, hopefully, I'll get lucky....:laughings:.
 
Ok...I've just had an idea for my 4x12 & getting a better recorded tone...This might sound fuckin' stupid, but here goes anyway...

Ok, the cab's got T-75's in it right now...all 16 ohm speakers...So, I've got the 3 different speakers, the T-75, V30, & Greenback...If all my speakers were the same ohm's, I could just swap a couple out, & have a 16 ohm cab with different speakers, for different tones, all I'd have to do is mic a different speaker...with me so far???

So, my Greenback & V30 speakers are 8 ohm....How could I wire this thing up, with 2 input jacks (seperate for 8 & 16 ohm speakers) until I can get another cab/speakers/whatever???



Like this ^, & have the top two speakers wired together, with the bottom 2 speakers wired together, on seperate input jacks...Lemme know if I'm just talking out my ass, or if this might be an option...I could still use a V30 or T-75 in my ISO cab too for late-night shit, but would have the 3 different speaker choices in my 4x12 for "keeper" tracks...

My cab has the standard, mono/stereo Marshall input jack (2 inputs, R is 16 ohm mono, 8 ohm per side using both jacks, or 4 ohms with the single L jack)....

And whenever I get more speakers/cabs/whatever, I can re-wire this thing back the way it is now....

Lemme know guys...
 
well ..... you'd wire the two 8ohm speakers in series giving you a total of 16 ohms for those two speakers.

For the two 16 ohmers you'd wirethem in parallel giving you a total of 8ohms for those.

It'd work fine ..... you'd have to change the impedance setting of the amp when you changed which pair of speakers you use unless you're just gonna run one amp into one pair and a different amp to the other pair.
 
Ok Bob...thanks dude, I just had another brain-fart....my cab is switchable, from mono to stereo...instead of having the 16 ohm on the bottom & the 8 ohm on the top, I could just have 'em on each side, like 16 ohm L, & 8 ohm R....I'd still have to re-wire the speakers to get the right impedance, and when I wanted to use a different speaker, just switch the cable to the other jack on the back of the cab....

Gonna do some digging about series/parallel wiring, I may stick my Greenback & V30 on one side of the cab, & leave the T-75's on the other...

I've pretty much came to the conclusion the new ISO cab ain't gonna give me what I'm after, I mean, it's ok, but I can't get the boxy/hollow sound out of it with amp settings or mic placement...So basically, the new ISO cab is an expensive low-volume practice speaker for now....I did take some of the Roxul out of it, but it didn't really help much at all...so, I'm back to square with it...

I'm not giving up on it just yet, as I still have some more gear on the "list" (more/different speakers & mics that I'll get eventually), but as of right now, I'm pretty disappointed with it...The home-made ISO I had sounded much better (to me anyway), but it was a bitch to move around when I had to, changing the speaker/moving the mic wasn't bad, it just wasn't as easy to access like the Randall is...

Fuckin' GAS is gettin' the best of me again, I'm wanting another cab (or two) with some different speakers pretty bad, but I'm gonna have to wait a little while before I can get 'em, unless I find a pretty good deal on something used (like the 2x12 I linked a few days ago...which the guy sold in just a couple of days..)...:).
 
Yo miner, that clip is WAY better than the others. It sounds normal. No weird boxiness. Yup, it's gotta be that iso-cab screwing you up. Your home-made jobby seemed to be way better. Sorry for that. Hey, you win some you lose some. You live you learn. Stuff like that. It's not the end of the world.

As for the cab thing, Yes you could split that cab into two 2x12s. Like mentioned already, just make sure you flip the head's impedance setting accordingly.

I'd recommend you ditch the switching mechanism though. Hardwire that cab with two jacks. One of my 1960 stereo/mono switching boards took a shit while my Plexi was blaring at full blast. All I heard was glorious roar, then a loud BZZZZT, then nothing. Thankfully nothing bad happened. I've since hardwired all three of my cabs to 16 ohm mono and cab-to-cab linkable. It's very easy to do. Fuck that stupid switching mechanism.

Remove the 4 screws from the jackplate and remove the entire jackplate from the cab. Unscrew the plastic nuts from the speaker jacks and the whole circuit board thing will slide out. You're left with the bare stock jackplate and a perfect platform to wire in your own mono jacks and have it still look factory fresh, which is good because you can't find replacement plates for these cabs anyway. I highly recommend you do this. The only problem with this method is that it's basically permanent. If you do as planned and have a 16 ohm half and an 8 ohm half, that's how it's gonna be forever unless you go back in and change speakers. You will have a permanent pair of 2x12s in the same box. Not the worst thing in the world, but you will be killing it as a 4x12.

Here's mine.

The offender. This piece of shit now resides in a landfill somewhere.


The fix.




Those are two $1.50 1/4" mono jacks wired into the stock jack spots. Either one is 16 ohm mono, and the other jack can be linked to another cab if I want.
 
Greg_L said:
Y One of my 1960 stereo/mono switching boards took a shit while my Plexi was blaring at full blast. All I heard was glorious roar, then a loud BZZZZT, then nothing.
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:eek:


those moments give new meaning to the term 'deafening silence'!
welll, except usually some cussing is heard.

hahahaha :D
 
Thanks guys,
You know, as nice & quiet as it is living here in the boonies, & I've lived here all my life, there's nothing around here...I'm gonna have to order the 1/4" jacks online...The closest Radio Shack (which was about a 40-45 min drive) has closed down, packed up, gone...So, I'm gonna order a few of those 1/4" jacks, plus some other little piddly shit I've been needing... Should be here by the end of the week...I truly live in the ass-end of the world over here guys...

On the ISO cab, yeah, live & learn...The difference in the Randall & the one I built are night/day sound-wise, the one I built had more room inside, so I'm assuming that's why it sounded better, the air could actually move in there...With the Randall, it's really got nowhere to go, so it's just bouncing around inside the cab, canceling itself out (I'm assuming)....But, I can still record my amps at night with it, instead of using an ampsim, recording di's, the re-amp later with the big cab when I can crank up....That was the original plan anyway, but I just fuckin' hate I threw about $400 at the Randall ISO cab & it sounds like utter shit compared to my 4x12 clips....Live & learn I suppose....

Greg: Thanks dude, while I can't use my 4x12 all the time, it does make a big, big difference in my recordings. So like I mentioned above, I'll use the ISO cab with my amps at low volume at night, then re-amp when I'm able to get some volume going...

I remember when your jack crapped out on you, & that's the same exact one I have in my cab...I pulled it out last night to look & see...

Bob: Thanks dude, I'm gonna do what I mentioned, GB/V30 on one side, T-75's on the other for now...
 
Greg_L said:
That's pretty cool. I've seen that magazine. I used to be very involved with a grass-roots drag circuit called the NMCA. Very fun. Hard work, but fun. Bad ass cars.
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It's a cool gig for sure.

Next week she goes to something called SEMA in Las Vegas.
It's supposed to be one of the biggest, most important car shows of all but not open to the public.

I've never heard of it but you might have.
 
Lt. Bob said:
It's a cool gig for sure.

Next week she goes to something called SEMA in Las Vegas.
It's supposed to be one of the biggest, most important car shows of all but not open to the public.

I've never heard of it but you might have.
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Oh yeah, I've been to a couple SEMA shows. They're pretty cool, but it's total sensory overload. It's like NAMM for car people.
 
I've always wanted to go to NAMM.

A couple of years ago I played at a huge show in Orlando that was NAMM for amusement park-ride companies.
They had hundreds of big inflatables set-up ...... mock ups of their latest roller coasters ...... virtual tours thru their 'fun-house' designs ..... the guys that build all the huge stuff at 6 flags and other theme parks had displays ..... I played for a booth where they designed and built wheels for rollercoasters ..... they had more wheels and of different construction for different types of rides than you would ever dream existed.
it was a pretty wild and weird show.
 
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