That's actually a thing already. Binaural recording.
The New Tone Thread
- Thread starter Telegram Sam
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That's actually a thing already. Binaural recording.
Here's the reply from Weber - see if you guys can makes sense of this:
"On our attenuators that have two (or three) knobs for adjusting the highs and lows, it would be very difficult and impractical to implement an impedance switch. Because impedance varies with frequency, and we are splitting the frequencies into two components (high and low) a global impedance switch would actually interfere with the tone-shaping function. The unit is designed around an 8 ohm speaker motor, but with all the components of the unit working together, it is safe to use on 4 8 or 16 ohm amps.
With all Weber attenuators, once you have selected the proper impedance to match the output impedance of the amp, the actual speaker impedance isn't critical. That's because the actual load to the attenuator becomes the speaker impedance plus the output section of the attenuator, while the amp continues to see the correct nominal impedance from the input section of the attenuator. That's why, on the MASS, we provide two speaker output jacks. Feel free to experiment with different impedance speakers, cabinets, etc. (this only means that the impedance will be matched when you have the attenuator engaged. if the unit is on bypass, it will not do any impedance correction.)"
I just want to know if I still need to match the head's output switch to the cab(s) ohm rating.
"On our attenuators that have two (or three) knobs for adjusting the highs and lows, it would be very difficult and impractical to implement an impedance switch. Because impedance varies with frequency, and we are splitting the frequencies into two components (high and low) a global impedance switch would actually interfere with the tone-shaping function. The unit is designed around an 8 ohm speaker motor, but with all the components of the unit working together, it is safe to use on 4 8 or 16 ohm amps.
With all Weber attenuators, once you have selected the proper impedance to match the output impedance of the amp, the actual speaker impedance isn't critical. That's because the actual load to the attenuator becomes the speaker impedance plus the output section of the attenuator, while the amp continues to see the correct nominal impedance from the input section of the attenuator. That's why, on the MASS, we provide two speaker output jacks. Feel free to experiment with different impedance speakers, cabinets, etc. (this only means that the impedance will be matched when you have the attenuator engaged. if the unit is on bypass, it will not do any impedance correction.)"
I just want to know if I still need to match the head's output switch to the cab(s) ohm rating.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I just want to know if I still need to match the head's output switch to the cab(s) ohm rating.
"On our attenuators that have two (or three) knobs for adjusting the highs and lows, it would be very difficult and impractical to implement an impedance switch. Because impedance varies with frequency, and we are splitting the frequencies into two components (high and low) a global impedance switch would actually interfere with the tone-shaping function. The unit is designed around an 8 ohm speaker motor, but with all the components of the unit working together, it is safe to use on 4 8 or 16 ohm amps.
With all Weber attenuators, once you have selected the proper impedance to match the output impedance of the amp, the actual speaker impedance isn't critical. That's because the actual load to the attenuator becomes the speaker impedance plus the output section of the attenuator, while the amp continues to see the correct nominal impedance from the input section of the attenuator. That's why, on the MASS, we provide two speaker output jacks. Feel free to experiment with different impedance speakers, cabinets, etc. (this only means that the impedance will be matched when you have the attenuator engaged. if the unit is on bypass, it will not do any impedance correction.)"
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I get the part about attenuators with multiple frequency options NOT able to have impedance toggles for selecting...
....but then I don't get this:
With all Weber attenuators, once you have selected the proper impedance to match the output impedance of the amp, the actual speaker impedance isn't critical.
OK...BUT...on the Mass there is NO option to "select proper impedance to match the output impedance of the amp"....so I'm not sure what the answer is AFA where you set your amp with a Mass.
They say that all their attenuators are designed to work around an 8 ohm speaker motor...but you can use 4/8/16 amps...and the speakers impedance is irrelevant with the attenuators...so set your amp's tap where you want.
I think when you Bypass...the load of the Mass is still there, but you just bypass the attenuation....I think.
....but then I don't get this:
With all Weber attenuators, once you have selected the proper impedance to match the output impedance of the amp, the actual speaker impedance isn't critical.
OK...BUT...on the Mass there is NO option to "select proper impedance to match the output impedance of the amp"....so I'm not sure what the answer is AFA where you set your amp with a Mass.
They say that all their attenuators are designed to work around an 8 ohm speaker motor...but you can use 4/8/16 amps...and the speakers impedance is irrelevant with the attenuators...so set your amp's tap where you want.
I think when you Bypass...the load of the Mass is still there, but you just bypass the attenuation....I think.
I get the part about attenuators with multiple frequency options NOT able to have impedance toggles for selecting...
....but then I don't get this:
With all Weber attenuators, once you have selected the proper impedance to match the output impedance of the amp, the actual speaker impedance isn't critical.
OK...BUT...on the Mass there is NO option to "select proper impedance to match the output impedance of the amp"....so I'm not sure what the answer is AFA where you set your amp with a Mass.
They say that all their attenuators are designed to work around an 8 ohm speaker motor...but you can use 4/8/16 amps...and the speakers impedance is irrelevant with the attenuators...so set your amp's tap where you want.
I think when you Bypass...the load of the Mass is still there, but you just bypass the attenuation....I think.
It's crazy! For a product that performs as well as it does, it's completely clouded in mystery and strange lingo.
My Mass 200 does not have independent high and low attenuation settings. It just has one huge knob and a treble compensation.
My response to that email was basically "just tell me if I still need to match my amp setting to my cabs rating." That's all I want to know.
When bypassed, it takes the whole thing out of the signal path, so it's straight amp to cab. I verified that myself, which IMO makes the bypass function useless....unless you just set the amp to match the cabs and the attenuator doesn't put any strange load on the amp.
I'm starting to think, for no reason whatsoever, that maybe when this thing is actually in action it all balances out. Meanwhile static testing yields all kinds of readings.
Here at home it's no big deal how it works. The fly in the ointment is that odd 4 ohm 8x10 cab that I use with the band. I'm gonna have to rewire that thing to be 16 ohms, or get a fucking answer as to where to set my amp when using that cab and this attenuator. Maybe I can just leave my amps at 8 ohms and cover all of my bases. Maybe. I'd rather not risk it without an answer.
minerman
Tonetard
^ This is what I'd do Greg....Just to be on the safe side with any of my amps, I'd use the same matched impedance just like the attenuator wasn't even there...
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
Really?
Because that's pretty clear to me ..... it says what oncor and I said .... the mass becomes the load your amp sees. " the amp continues to see the correct nominal impedance from the input section of the attenuator."
It also says that when the unit is engaged it does "impedance correction" which means it corrects the impedance to match the amp output which, in this case, is 16ohms. ...... as far as I'm concerned it's pretty clear. Set your amp to match the Mass .... if the only option the mass offers is 16 ohms then set your amp to that. Then, according to your reply from weber, it doesn't matter what speakers you use.
If you're still in doubt pick up a phone and call them.
Because that's pretty clear to me ..... it says what oncor and I said .... the mass becomes the load your amp sees. " the amp continues to see the correct nominal impedance from the input section of the attenuator."
It also says that when the unit is engaged it does "impedance correction" which means it corrects the impedance to match the amp output which, in this case, is 16ohms. ...... as far as I'm concerned it's pretty clear. Set your amp to match the Mass .... if the only option the mass offers is 16 ohms then set your amp to that. Then, according to your reply from weber, it doesn't matter what speakers you use.
If you're still in doubt pick up a phone and call them.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I would NOT do that ...... the Mass is 16 ohms and that's definitely the load the amp sees and that also what they're telling you to do.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
It's OK to be cautious....
...but honestly, I've been plugging 8 Ohm amp outputs into 16 Ohm speakers/cabs for years.I've never, ever, never, ever....had any kind of issue.
I mean...you're a bit too concerned about having a "mismatched" impedance, especially when going with less load is not going to do anything to the amp...
...but the nice return is that you can drop some output level from your amp (so you can crank it more) and you also change the tone/feel of the amp.
So it's just another tool...and easy way to get more flavors from one amp.
I think right now I have two amps (Carr Hammerhead, dual EL34 and Dr Z Rt. 66, dual KT66) each with a 16 Ohm speaker, when their "normal" tap would be 8 Ohms.
I've played them at low levels, and dimed...it does nothing bad to them.
TO tell the truth...I like them, both more this way than with 8 Ohm speakers. They were both too punchy/hard, and when I cranked them, they were WAY TOO LOUD...so now they are much more useable, and I like what the 16 Ohm speakers did to the tone/feel. They just sound creamier and a little more smoother, not as hard.
ocnor
Lord Of The Thighs
^^^This^^^ We are old and we know stuff.
You can trust what Bob and I have been telling you, or you can keep contacting Weber until they become annoyed.jonny deep
Disappointing Member
My reading of the Weber email is the same as the Lt's. It seems to me they're saying as long as it's not bypassed, it will always present the same load, no matter the cab rating.
jonny deep
Disappointing Member
I think you need to set your amps to 16ohm and can run any cab, as long as it's not bypassed. In bypass mode, you'll be wanting to make sure the amp and cab are matched as usual. That's my understanding of all of this so far.
jonny deep
Disappointing Member
I'm thinking of it like this. If there's no cab attached, the Weber thing presents a 16 ohm load. If a 4 ohm cab is attached, it adds 12 ohm load to make 16, if an 8 ohm cab is attached, it adds 8 ohms, and so on.
That might not be exactly the inner workings, but I'm guessing that's an equivalent enough mental model of what's happening.
That might not be exactly the inner workings, but I'm guessing that's an equivalent enough mental model of what's happening.
jonny deep
Disappointing Member
And if you have a 4 ohm cab attached, probably best not to hit bypass!
I'll feel better when I actually have that stupid 4 ohm cab hooked up and I measure what it does at the amp. I think with my own cabs I'd be fine with the amp set at 8 or 16. My home cabs are always set up as a single 16 ohm, or two 16s in parallel for an 8 ohm load. No problem there. I'll be in front of that stupid 4 ohm cab tonight. I would LOVE to be able to just leave my amps at 8 or 16 and use any cab. Bypassing the attenuator is not something I'll ever do.
Weber says that their Mass units are built around an 8 ohm speaker motor, but everything I'm measuring through the range of the dial seems to be in the 8-16 ohm range, give or take. Maybe I need to just stop measuring this shit.
Weber says that their Mass units are built around an 8 ohm speaker motor, but everything I'm measuring through the range of the dial seems to be in the 8-16 ohm range, give or take. Maybe I need to just stop measuring this shit.
jonny deep
Disappointing Member
Ah, I thought it was presenting a solid 16 ohm laod, no matter the setting or cab.
I'd be trying your different load cabs and turning the dial and measuring the presented loads. Write up (or make a spreadsheet of) your measurements for different cab loads at various dial settings - then you can be certain of whether you can just switch to 16 ohm and it be fine for your cabs, or if you need to be more careful than that. Going on the email you pasted here, I do think it's fine, but they could have been a bit clearer in their response!
EDIT - which is what you're pretty much doing already!
I'd be trying your different load cabs and turning the dial and measuring the presented loads. Write up (or make a spreadsheet of) your measurements for different cab loads at various dial settings - then you can be certain of whether you can just switch to 16 ohm and it be fine for your cabs, or if you need to be more careful than that. Going on the email you pasted here, I do think it's fine, but they could have been a bit clearer in their response!
EDIT - which is what you're pretty much doing already!
I'm 100% convinced that I've over thought this to the point of confusion and exasperation.
jonny deep
Disappointing Member
Take the measurements and tabulate the results. Then you'll know for sure. You're never going to have anything other than 4, 8 or 16 ohm cabs to worry about anyway, presumably, so it's not a huge task to be sure you won't blow anything up.