Whe good companies go bad!!!!!!

Light

New member
When great companies go bad!!!!!!

I was going to post this under the cheap guitar thread, but it didn't really seem apropos.

If you are buying a inexpensive guitar, the one thing I would advise you to avoid at all costs, no matter how cheap they are, is the Martin X series guitars (the DCXME and such), the ones with the Formica tops. They are coming back to bit the factory and the people who have bought them, big time. The tops collapse with some regularity, leading to severely low action which, in some cases, is impossible to fix. The worst part is, the factory are saying, "The top is within spec" (that is a direct quote from a factory repair quote on a customers guitar recently) on these guitars.

In the last two weeks I have seen at least a half a dozen with severely sunken tops, and we have had probably twenty in the shop this winter. It looks like a very severe case of under humidification, except that they are (supposedly) not susceptible to humidity issues. We have been theorizing that the braces, which are not really adequate to do the job in the first place, are drying out, causing the problem. The have an X brace, and a traverse brace under the fingerboard area. They also have a few graphite patches on the inside of the top. It is not enough structure in the best of situations. Even when they are right, they sound like they have been strung up with rubber bands, as the top flexes too much.

I love Martin guitars, and I think that the 15 style guitars are the best value out there in the guitar market right now, but the X series guitars are a nightmare, and Chris and the rest of the factory are (I think) starting to realize it. There is no way we should be having the number of repair issues we are having on guitars which are less than 5 years old. They have (I think) gone too far in their attempt to be competitive with Taylor.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Last edited:
Well thanks for the warning, but anyone that buys a guitar with a formica top, should be bitch slapped.
 
grinder said:
Well thanks for the warning, but anyone that buys a guitar with a formica top, should be bitch slapped.


And yet people have been buying them. Now, mostly it seems to have been 18-21 year old guys who are just looking for their first guitar, but still, they are buying them. The part that is really annoying (to me) is when the customers call the dealers and say, "I am having a problem with my guitar," and the dealers say, "Take it to the warranty center, you won't even have to pay to have it fixed." Two problems with this. Humidity issues are NEVER covered under warranty (although every now and then Taylor will cover one, but not often), and action adjustments are not covered under warranty (contrary to what EVERY dealer apparently tells EVERY customer).

At any rate, I just fixed one yesterday where the top had sunk about 3/8 of an inch. It is the worst sunken top I have ever seen on any guitars. Quite astounding.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
lend_me_talent said:
I've got a DCME with solid top I like my Takamine better- its so much easier to play

Then it needs a setup. Take it to a good repair person, and have it done up right. You will be happy you did.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
So what is the fix when a top is caved in? (I imagine the answer is that it depends. But what are some of the possiblities?) I have a 15- to 20-year-old Simon and Patrick, bought in the mid '80s for about $450, I think. The intonation was off, and I took it in for a setup. The tech said the top was "dished in." You could see it when he laid a straight edge across the top--more toward the front or headstock than toward the back or bridge.

I took it to the place I bought it, and they took it in saying they would make a compensted saddle. (When the low E note is in tune the G note three frets away is way sharp. Depending on what I am playing, I tune the E string while fretting the G, so the G chord will sound right.) I came back after a week, and was told that the saddle had already been compensated as far as it could be. The had put new strings on for me, did a set up (?) and sent me on my way.

I have three guitars, and I almost never play the Simon & Patrick, even though it's my only six-string accoustic. I am going to take it to a very good luthier (about two hours away) to learn whether to fix it or forget it. I love the sound, as long as I stay away from the E string. If it can be fixed, great. If it can't be fixed, I'm OK, 'cause I get to shop for another guitar. (Goodall? Maton if I can find one?) I will enjoy the process, and will stay away from the bottom of Martin's line (maybe I'll stay away from the middle and top, too).
 
grinder said:
Well thanks for the warning, but anyone that buys a guitar with a formica top, should be bitch slapped.


Or maybe Martin should be bitch slapped for building them.
 
I guess I came really close to needing a bitch slapping...
Have any of you who are anti-formica actually played one of these guitars? I almost bought a DXCE. It's a pretty sweet sounding guitar. Much duller than a Taylor, but It still sounded cool. It was also extremely easy to play. Luckilly I read a review on Harmony Central about the cave in issue.

Anyway, I bought a Takamine instead, and I love it.

Thanks for getting the warning out to others Light.
 
Mumbus said:
I guess I came really close to needing a bitch slapping...
Have any of you who are anti-formica actually played one of these guitars? I almost bought a DXCE. It's a pretty sweet sounding guitar. Much duller than a Taylor, but It still sounded cool. It was also extremely easy to play. Luckilly I read a review on Harmony Central about the cave in issue.

Anyway, I bought a Takamine instead, and I love it.

Thanks for getting the warning out to others Light.


I have played about twenty this year, and they all sound like they are strung with rubber bands. Yeach!!!!!!!!


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
onlyfingers said:
So what is the fix when a top is caved in? (I imagine the answer is that it depends. But what are some of the possiblities?) I have a 15- to 20-year-old Simon and Patrick, bought in the mid '80s for about $450, I think. The intonation was off, and I took it in for a setup. The tech said the top was "dished in." You could see it when he laid a straight edge across the top--more toward the front or headstock than toward the back or bridge.

I took it to the place I bought it, and they took it in saying they would make a compensted saddle. (When the low E note is in tune the G note three frets away is way sharp. Depending on what I am playing, I tune the E string while fretting the G, so the G chord will sound right.) I came back after a week, and was told that the saddle had already been compensated as far as it could be. The had put new strings on for me, did a set up (?) and sent me on my way.

I have three guitars, and I almost never play the Simon & Patrick, even though it's my only six-string accoustic. I am going to take it to a very good luthier (about two hours away) to learn whether to fix it or forget it. I love the sound, as long as I stay away from the E string. If it can be fixed, great. If it can't be fixed, I'm OK, 'cause I get to shop for another guitar. (Goodall? Maton if I can find one?) I will enjoy the process, and will stay away from the bottom of Martin's line (maybe I'll stay away from the middle and top, too).


On a guitar with a wood top, that is typically a sign that the guitar has been under humidified. You need to humidify the guitar. I recommend you use a Kyser Lifeguard in the soundhole, and then go out and by a soap dish, drill some holes in the top, and put a sponge in it. Put this in the case, with the guitar, when ever you are not playing it. Check to make sure the sponges are wet every two or three days, and the top will come back, in time. Just a warning, the next step on a top like that is for it to crack, so deal with it as soon as possible.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Thanks, Light. I hope I get off that easy. Although there have been periods where Ihaven't played much, I have been playing virtually every day for the last five years or so. The problem is relatively new, well after I received "humidity religion," but before I ran into your posts that indicate that the humidifiers offered by the industry are insufficient. I used to use a Dampit, but saw that moving the soundhole cover in and out a couple of times a day for several years left a whole lot of tiny scratches. I switched to Planet Waves. Humidity religion is not enough. I must become a humidity zealot. Since seeing your posts, I got three soap dishes, one for each guitar. Next stop: WalMart for the sponges. How do you punch the holes? What diameter? How many?

With thanks.
 
onlyfingers said:
How do you punch the holes? What diameter? How many?

With thanks.


It doesn't really matter. The soap dishes we have at the shop have nine little bumps in a square pattern around the middle of the top. I just drilled those out with a 3/16" drill bit, but that is just because I am a bit of an anal retentive. Also, we show them to customers, and so the detail that I have put into them can not help but positively reflect on the work you can expect out of our shop. What is important is that air can flow. Just drill whatever holes fell right.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
My Jumbo 12 top pulled up making the action unplaybly high. The repair center said it was not built strong enough for 12 strings. Martin replaced it but they have had to do with the fact that the pick-guard laminat was still on and the neck was net even polished yet.
I installed low tension/light strings and tuned down. Happy now.

Bicycle racer and crasher
 
I don't blame anyone.
You get what you paid for. People usually buying cheap guitars are buying it because:
1) they can't afford more expensive ones
2) They want to see if they can learn the guitar.

Hope this helps. So please don't slap anyone
 
Onlyfingers,

Whereabouts are you located and where did you hear of Matons?

They did have a distributor in the US but I noticed recently on maton's site that they don't mention the US at the moment so if you need info at any time give me a yell and I'll find out what the current situation is and also give you an insight into the different models, etc.



:cool:
 
Re: When great companies go bad!!!!!!

Light said:
I was going to post this under the cheap guitar thread, but it didn't really seem apropos.

If you are buying a inexpensive guitar, the one thing I would advise you to avoid at all costs, no matter how cheap they are, is the Martin X series guitars (the DCXME and such), the ones with the Formica tops. They are coming back to bit the factory and the people who have bought them, big time. The tops collapse with some regularity, leading to severely low action which, in some cases, is impossible to fix. The worst part is, the factory are saying, "The top is within spec" (that is a direct quote from a factory repair quote on a customers guitar recently) on these guitars.

In the last two weeks I have seen at least a half a dozen with severely sunken tops, and we have had probably twenty in the shop this winter. It looks like a very severe case of under humidification, except that they are (supposedly) not susceptible to humidity issues. We have been theorizing that the braces, which are not really adequate to do the job in the first place, are drying out, causing the problem. The have an X brace, and a traverse brace under the fingerboard area. They also have a few graphite patches on the inside of the top. It is not enough structure in the best of situations. Even when they are right, they sound like they have been strung up with rubber bands, as the top flexes too much.

I love Martin guitars, and I think that the 15 style guitars are the best value out there in the guitar market right now, but the X series guitars are a nightmare, and Chris and the rest of the factory are (I think) starting to realize it. There is no way we should be having the number of repair issues we are having on guitars which are less than 5 years old. They have (I think) gone too far in their attempt to be competitive with Taylor.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Martin guitars, like Taylor guitars are 100% machine built. These two companies hide that fact. They are extremely overpriced. There are better handmade american guitars for less $$$ that blow both of them away.
 
Some interesting info there.

However the name Ed Romain is one that has some controversy in some guitar circles.

Ed
 
Hi, Ausrock. Thanks for offering to fill me in on Matons.

This thread is going a little astray from Light's original post, isn't it? That's part of the fun, I guess. The last time I heard aboout Matons, it was on this board or Guitar.com. As you know, they come up sometimes when people are asking about low cost, high quality guitars. (Probably because you bring them up?) I think the last Maton post had to do with whether to ask the dealer to order a Maton on spec, or whether to order the guitar outright, sight unseen. One reply suggested that the reader go on over to Nicky's Music in Newport, RI to try out Matons. (www.nickysmusic.com)

I can drive to Nicky's in just over an hour, and at some point I'm going there to try one out. I checked out the Maton web site, and read some Maton reviews on Harmony Central. Nicky's has the 225 line only. But I'm not that fond of the dreadnought shape--aestetically, I like a narrower waist. BG808? Jumbo? The 225 will give me a feel for the tone, feel, and workmanship. If the 225 is nice, then I have to try to track down a dealer with more Matons.

I would rather fix my present Simon & Patrick six string, though. I've been to two techs (luthiers) who couldn't really help, and as soon as I can spring free from work for a half day, I'll go to the best one I know, and let him give a thumbs up or thumbs down.
 
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