The New Tone Thread

OK, I understand that if I use an attenuator, I won't be getting speaker breakup, which is part of the desired sound. What I don't know is how much of the desired sound is speaker breakup, and I suppose I won't know for sure until I try it different ways, which is hard for me to do, especially right now.

In my reality, I can't imagine a scenario where I would be pushing anything larger than a 15W Blues Jr, and more than likely it would just be something in the 5W range.

So, let me take this discussion in a different direction for a moment, and then I'll try to get out of your hair. As mentioned, I've got a V30, and I'm sure I could look up sensitivity numbers, but for those that have both (or others), would a greenback breakup faster, or more importantly, would a 5W push a greenback into breakup period?

Or, if there are any other recommendations for blues/southern/classic(which to me means '70s) rock that a 5W, or possibly a 15W, would push to a pleasing breakup for that kind of music? I'd like to have 2 options, one for the stereotypical sounds I mentioned, plus more of a 'dirty boogie' sound, somewhere between George Thorogood and Brian Setzer.
 
notCardio said:
OK, I understand that if I use an attenuator, I won't be getting speaker breakup, which is part of the desired sound. What I don't know is how much of the desired sound is speaker breakup, and I suppose I won't know for sure until I try it different ways, which is hard for me to do, especially right now.

In my reality, I can't imagine a scenario where I would be pushing anything larger than a 15W Blues Jr, and more than likely it would just be something in the 5W range.

So, let me take this discussion in a different direction for a moment, and then I'll try to get out of your hair. As mentioned, I've got a V30, and I'm sure I could look up sensitivity numbers, but for those that have both (or others), would a greenback breakup faster, or more importantly, would a 5W push a greenback into breakup period?
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possibly .... a greenback is only a 25 watt speaker so it might.
The 15 watt Blues Jr definitely would.
A V30 is a 60 watt speaker .... getting sensitivity numbers won't tell you anything as that has nothing to do with speaker breakup.

As for the attenuator thing ..... no .... you don't only have to try it for yourself ..... expend some energy and look thru the thread starting around post 650 and find gregs posts which he did in every imaginable setting and you can hear for yourself.
That'll give you a pretty decent idea.
 
A Greenback will "break up" faster than a V30. Would a 5w amp push a Greenback into breakup? I don't know. Probably a little. Greenbacks are pretty soft.

In your situation where getting a small amp to push a speaker is tough, you could go the other way and get a very stiff speaker that pretty much takes it out of the equation all together. If you want that old school american sound, a stiff Jensen or JBL could be better than Celestions. Those things have their own sound too, but they're so stiff they won't add too much of their own color to the sound. A lot of metal guys use stiff speakers for that very reason. They want mega tight articulation, so they use super high watt speakers that won't break up even at massive volumes. Like Zakk Wylde. His cabs are rated at like 1200 watts. Lol. Not even his mighty JCM 800s are hurting those things.
 
he could buy a 10 watt speaker. There are some Jensens that are available in such small ratings and Warehouse speakers just sent me an email bragging about a new 10 watter.

He could also look for old stereo speakers .... I mean OLD ..... like those old huge consoles with built in everything people in the 60's used to have in their living rooms.
Those are pretty low wattage.
 
Lt. Bob said:
he could buy a 10 watt speaker. There are some Jensens that are available in such small ratings and Warehouse speakers just sent me an email bragging about a new 10 watter.
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Yup. True. And Celestion used to make 10-15 watt small magnet Greenbacks. But good luck finding one of those. :laughings:
 
yeah .... the smallest I'm seeing is a 15 watt alnico .... I bet it'd be awesome for what he wants.

But it's $225!

I do see some 20 watters for around 40 bucks.
 
Thanks guys, I'd forgotten about those clips to be honest....The G12H seems smoother every time I use it now, I've had that thing & the '65 since the first of December, but honestly, I haven't really had the amp/cab running a whole lot. There's times I'll go a few days without even turning 'em on, so I'd say someone like the Gerg would get 'em broken in pretty quick. But again, it seems to be smoothing out really nicely...

I bet 2 of 'em together in the 2061x 2x12 cab would kill with the Chupacabra...

To me Greg, the G12H does seem kinda like a high-powered Greenback, it's got that break-up character to it, but obviously you have to push it a little harder than a GB....The tonal characteristics are a little different, but after spending about 6 months with it, I do hear the similarities...

Oh yeah, the reason I had the resonance/presence up so high on the DSL was another online buddy told me that's how he runs his DSL's. He cranks the resonance/presence so the power section is putting out max bass/treble, then adjusts his tone with B/M/T....He says he likes it like this, but he plays live too, & doesn't record AFAIK...I had to turn the presence down because it was just too much in the room, but on about 5 or so, in the room it sounded pretty damn mean IMO...I know the Vietnam made DSL's get shit on because of where they're made, but I think they're good amps myself...
 
On the 25w Greenback thing, with my low-watt amps, the Tweaker definitely gets a little breakup from it, the DSL-1H, not so much, but, I pretty much expect that...I can't remember if my HT-5 would push the Greenback to breakup or not, I had both at the same time, but I didn't keep the HT-5 very long, honestly, I was underwhelmed with it...
 
I can see running up the resonance and presence when playing live. You have to compete with bass and drums and shit. I use those controls on my JVM when I use that amp. Not much resonance, but presence for sure on all my amps. I often turn the treble down and run the presence high. It just sound bigger that way. But for recording I use very little of either. Never resonance, usually a little presence.
 
Greg_L said:
I can see running up the resonance and presence when playing live. You have to compete with bass and drums and shit. I use those controls on my JVM when I use that amp. Not much resonance, but presence for sure on all my amps. I often turn the treble down and run the presence high. It just sound bigger that way. But for recording I use very little of either. Never resonance, usually a little presence.
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Yep, the guy I was talking about doesn't record, & I was just fucking around so I thought I'd try it....I can see/hear how it would make the amp cut a little more in a live situation though, to a point....

Too much presence with my DSL & it gets fizzy pretty fast, even with the treble on "0"...

Is your JVM similar like my DSL with the fizz dude???
 
Not really. I wouldn't say "fizzy". Too much presence gives it this very high end kind of "hissss" sound. I've found it usually resides around 9.5khz when recorded.
 
Greg_L said:
Not really. I wouldn't say "fizzy". Too much presence gives it this very high end kind of "hissss" sound. I've found it usually resides around 9.5khz when recorded.
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Cool man, I was just wondering how similar the DSL/JVM amps are...I know the JVM will do the DSL tones, but not the other way around, it'll get kinda close on some of 'em, but the JVM is way more versatile....I'd still love to have one someday, that's what I'd originally set out to buy, but ended up going cheap with the DSL, but I'm still happy, it's a pretty good amp IMO, just not as versatile as the JVM (obviously)...


Shan: Hey dude!!!!! Where the fuck have ya been???:)
 
minerman said:
Cool man, I was just wondering how similar the DSL/JVM amps are...I know the JVM will do the DSL tones, but not the other way around, it'll get kinda close on some of 'em, but the JVM is way more versatile....I'd still love to have one someday, that's what I'd originally set out to buy, but ended up going cheap with the DSL, but I'm still happy, it's a pretty good amp IMO, just not as versatile as the JVM (obviously)...
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The DSL will do similar tones to some of the JVM tones. Not many things are as versatile as the 4-channel JVM. I think it's literally got and will do everything a guitar player could want with an amp. For all the years Marshall tried to make channel switchers with modes and shit, they finally got it right with the JVM. You have to commit with this motherfucker though. It's got so many options and variables that you can spend years going through different things. If you're a cover guy that needs lots of sounds, this the amp that will do it. I think it's best suited for modern rock guys that go through lots of tones in one song. You know, typical modern rock stuff that will have a clean riff during a verse, then kick it up to high gain for a chorus, then mega gain for a lead. This amp excels at that.

I like to play with it at practices to "use it up". I'll set up a sound I wanna use for each channel, and set up a lead channel, and I'll bounce through them from song to song, sometimes changing within the same song. I'll plow along with my usual rhythm sound, then kick into screaming lead channel with delay and reverb, then back to a dry rhythm crunch. Shit like that. It's fun, gives me something to do. :laughings:

But even with all that fancy shit, I'd still rather use my old-school single channel amps for live or recording.
 
Okay, here's the last of my amps with the attenuator. This is the 1987x - 50w Plexi reissue. No master volume. It's wide open loud as soon as you turn it on. These are the types of amps attenuators were designed for. So here we go...

Les Paul Traditional - Burstbucker 3 bridge pickup
Marshall 1987x - 50w Plexi reissue
Presence - 6
Bass - 4
Mid - 5
Treb - 6
Vol 1 - 7
Vol 2 - 0
High input 1 only
Marshall 1960A - Greenback - Senn e609 on axis, on grill, halfway to edge
No EQ or nuthin...

Okay first the baseline. No attenuator. Very very loud. Way too loud for a bar/club gig.
50w Plexi - Baseline - no attenuator

Now we shall attenuate the madness. Rolled down to 8 on the attenuator. Still probably a little too loud for a bar/club gig, but I could probably pull it off.
50w Plexi - attenuator 8

Attenuator at 5. Really loud still in the room, but probably not loud enough for a rock gig or full band practice.
50w Plexi - attenuator 5

Attenuator at 2. It's really cranked down now. Loud enough to bug people in the next room, but not ear pain loud.
50w Plexi - attenuator 2

Attenuator at .5. This is about as low as it will go and still make a usable sound. This is TV volume. You could happily noodle around like this without bothering anyone.
50w Plexi - -attenuator .5 - TV volume

Baseline, attenuator at 5, and attenuator TV volume all normalized to the same relative loudness.
50w Plexi - Baseline - no attenuator
attenuator at 5 normalized
attenuator at .5 - TV volume - normalized

Okay, see what you think. :)
 
Greg_L said:
The DSL will do similar tones to some of the JVM tones. Not many things are as versatile as the 4-channel JVM. I think it's literally got and will do everything a guitar player could want with an amp. For all the years Marshall tried to make channel switchers with modes and shit, they finally got it right with the JVM. You have to commit with this motherfucker though. It's got so many options and variables that you can spend years going through different things. If you're a cover guy that needs lots of sounds, this the amp that will do it. I think it's best suited for modern rock guys that go through lots of tones in one song. You know, typical modern rock stuff that will have a clean riff during a verse, then kick it up to high gain for a chorus, then mega gain for a lead. This amp excels at that.

I like to play with it at practices to "use it up". I'll set up a sound I wanna use for each channel, and set up a lead channel, and I'll bounce through them from song to song, sometimes changing within the same song. I'll plow along with my usual rhythm sound, then kick into screaming lead channel with delay and reverb, then back to a dry rhythm crunch. Shit like that. It's fun, gives me something to do. :laughings:

But even with all that fancy shit, I'd still rather use my old-school single channel amps for live or recording.
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Cool Greg, & thanks for giving me the run-down on the JVM...again...:laughings:.

I bet it'd sit with me really well me dude, because, where you like a single-channel amp, with pedals & the guitar's volume knob for differnt sounds/tones, I'm actually more akin to a channel switching amp. Back in the day, that was a big reason I got that Randall, it was a 2-channel amp, same thing with the Valvestate head, it had 3 channels, but, I didn't get into my gear back then like I do now, meaning looking back the VS100 I had was way more versatile than I knew....

The way I'd usually set it up for a gig is clean, od1 for a crunch sound, & the od2 for high-gain lead stuff. I didn't use any od/distortion pedals, but for effects, I had a Zoom 505 & an Alesis NanoVerb I used in the fx loop (mostly chorus, delay & 'verb)...We usually never mic'd our amps, maybe for a bigger gig (like an outdoor thing), but most of the time we just used our amps' stage volume for the mix...

But, back to the JVM, with the included footswitch, you can basically set it up to have 12 different, footswitchable sounds, right???
 
All the clips sound really similar to me dude, even the .5 tv volume could be used in a mix IMO....Don't really have a favorite out of these, because I just had a quick listen, but I'll try to get back to 'em later...
 
minerman said:
Cool Greg, & thanks for giving me the run-down on the JVM...again...:laughings:.

I bet it'd sit with me really well me dude, because, where you like a single-channel amp, with pedals & the guitar's volume knob for differnt sounds/tones, I'm actually more akin to a channel switching amp. Back in the day, that was a big reason I got that Randall, it was a 2-channel amp, same thing with the Valvestate head, it had 3 channels, but, I didn't get into my gear back then like I do now, meaning looking back the VS100 I had was way more versatile than I knew....

The way I'd usually set it up for a gig is clean, od1 for a crunch sound, & the od2 for high-gain lead stuff. I didn't use any od/distortion pedals, but for effects, I had a Zoom 505 & an Alesis NanoVerb I used in the fx loop (mostly chorus, delay & 'verb)...We usually never mic'd our amps, maybe for a bigger gig (like an outdoor thing), but most of the time we just used our amps' stage volume for the mix...

But, back to the JVM, with the included footswitch, you can basically set it up to have 12 different, footswitchable sounds, right???
Click to expand...
I don't think you can do that many with just the stock footswitch. It's a 6-button switch, so I think the best you can do is 6 presets. I could be wrong because I don't use it that way. I just use it in it's default setting. Buttons 1-4 cycle through the modes of their respective channels, button 5 is the secondary master volume, button 6 is reverb. I set my channels before I play. I think with a MIDI switch you can store like 127 presets or something. Crazy.

I usually have mine set up like this:
Button 1 Clean channel - Clean channel turned all the way down to mute the amp if need be
Button 2 Crunch channel - Crunch Channel Green mode for clean-ish stuff with reverb and effects loop on for a little delay.
Button 3 OD 1 - OD 1 Green, no effects loop, no reverb, dry for rhythm playing.
Button 4 OD 2 - OD 2 Orange, effects loop on for delay, tiny bit of reverb. This is my smoking lead channel.
Button 5 - Second master vol for boost on any channel if necessary
Button 6 - Reverb - can be turned on/off any channel

minerman said:
All the clips sound really similar to me dude, even the .5 tv volume could be used in a mix IMO....Don't really have a favorite out of these, because I just had a quick listen, but I'll try to get back to 'em later...
Click to expand...

Cool thanks dude. It is mostly more of the same, just with a different amp. :D
 
Greg_L said:
I don't think you can do that many with just the stock footswitch. It's a 6-button switch, so I think the best you can do is 6 presets. I could be wrong because I don't use it that way. I just use it in it's default setting. Buttons 1-4 cycle through the modes of their respective channels, button 5 is the secondary master volume, button 6 is reverb. I set my channels before I play. I think with a MIDI switch you can store like 127 presets or something. Crazy.

I usually have mine set up like this:
Button 1 Clean channel - Clean channel turned all the way down to mute the amp if need be
Button 2 Crunch channel - Crunch Channel Green mode for clean-ish stuff with reverb and effects loop on for a little delay.
Button 3 OD 1 - OD 1 Green, no effects loop, no reverb, dry for rhythm playing.
Button 4 OD 2 - OD 2 Orange, effects loop on for delay, tiny bit of reverb. This is my smoking lead channel.
Button 5 - Second master vol for boost on any channel if necessary
Button 6 - Reverb - can be turned on/off any channel
Click to expand...

Ok, I get that, you got an idea if you can do a bunch of different presets with a midi controller??? I've read about it, but not sure exactly how it'd work. If so, most midi controllers have like 128 banks/presets, so if that's possible, it'd be just un-real....I'm not sayin' I'd want 128 presets, but it'd be pretty much as many as one would ever want...


Greg_L said:
Cool thanks dude. It is mostly more of the same, just with a different amp. :D
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Yeah dude, your clips always sound good, & a lot of 'em are even similar, but I'm starting to be able to tell the slight differences in your amps, speakers, & mics....I've actually downloaded a lot of your clips just for reference dude...:).
 
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