My friend wants to put good pickups in an average guitar. I was trying to explain he would be better off to save up for a better guitar (his is <$200), but i couldn't explain why. How does the guitars construction and materials affect the sound of the guitar if the pickup is magnetic and is picking up the strings, how does what its made of affect what the pickup amplifies?
How does what your guitar is made of affect the sound?
- Thread starter wreckd504
- Start date
fastisgood
New member
Well, I'll try to keep this brief 
, wish me luck 
.
1. OK, so he paid $200 for it. It cost the retailer half of that: $100. The retailer had to buy it from the manufacturer, which charges right around a 100% markup, which means the guitar cost $50 to make, maybe even less than that.
2. So if the guitar cost $50 to make, everything on the guitar can't be very nice/expensive, which means, the wood is junk, the electronics are cheap, and the whole guitar was quickly bolted together on an assembly line. To quote Larry the Cable Guy, he's hanging chandeliers in a haunted house.
I am very big on modding guitars, but you need to have GOOD WOOD and GOOD CONSTRUCTION to begin with. If the wood and construction are not of good quality, the guitar will never be good no matter how it is modded. Jay Turser, Axl, and Agile all make guitars that are excellently constructed and use very good wood (once you get past $250 or so) for a very nice price. Carvin also sells bodies and bolt-on necks already fretted, routed, and with a fitted/filed nut for not very much money. If he isn't interested in modding a moderately priced guitar ($300 to $500: initial cost of the guitar), he's just gonna have to accept the fact that good never equals cheap and start saving for a RR1 Rhoads.
I think it has more to do with the type of wood than the thickness. What about poplar? No wood is more resonant that poplar, and it's lighter than just about every other wood.
, wish me luck . 1. OK, so he paid $200 for it. It cost the retailer half of that: $100. The retailer had to buy it from the manufacturer, which charges right around a 100% markup, which means the guitar cost $50 to make, maybe even less than that.
2. So if the guitar cost $50 to make, everything on the guitar can't be very nice/expensive, which means, the wood is junk, the electronics are cheap, and the whole guitar was quickly bolted together on an assembly line. To quote Larry the Cable Guy, he's hanging chandeliers in a haunted house.
I am very big on modding guitars, but you need to have GOOD WOOD and GOOD CONSTRUCTION to begin with. If the wood and construction are not of good quality, the guitar will never be good no matter how it is modded. Jay Turser, Axl, and Agile all make guitars that are excellently constructed and use very good wood (once you get past $250 or so) for a very nice price. Carvin also sells bodies and bolt-on necks already fretted, routed, and with a fitted/filed nut for not very much money. If he isn't interested in modding a moderately priced guitar ($300 to $500: initial cost of the guitar), he's just gonna have to accept the fact that good never equals cheap and start saving for a RR1 Rhoads.
I think it has more to do with the type of wood than the thickness. What about poplar? No wood is more resonant that poplar, and it's lighter than just about every other wood.
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capnkid
Optimus Prime
Here are some wood descriptions.
http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/options/options_bodywoods.cfm
http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/options/options_bodywoods.cfm
Cheaper guitars (clones and copys) often use the same type of wood as was used in the original, for example many strat clones are made of alder, same as a Fender. Same type of wood does not mean same quality. The harvesting and curing process determines the quality (grade) of the wood. Each type of wood has both good and bad qualities, some have more resonance, some yeild better sustain, some are more durable, the list could get as long as the variety of trees. If your friend likes his guitar (looks, feel, weight, whatever reason) replacing the pickups with better will improve the guitar. Replacing all the electronics will improve it even more. The question becomes, does he want to spend his money to upgrade his present guitar or buy a better guitar? I've replaced the pups on several fairly cheap guitars with very good results, changing pots and switches has also made dramatic improvements. Sometimes a $200 guitar with another $200 worth of mods can be as good as a $2000 guitar, not always but sometimes.
muttley600
Banned
Wrong I'm afraid. The acoustic properties of timber is an extremely complex subject. There has been quite a bit of talk about it here in the past. Use the search feature.
In a nutshell the properties an instrument maker looks for in tonewoods are stiffness/elasticity and mass per unit length. The most most prized tonewood of all would be spruce which is light and stiff. One of the heaviest timbers out there, lignum vitae has terrible acoustic properties. Go figure.
To give a proper answer to this one the question needs to be more specific. You cannot discuss the tonal properties of timber without some specific criteria in mind. I'm happy to answer any questions but try a narrow down the field a bit.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
lol easy tiger
muttley600
Banned
Let him if he likes the guitar. Why are you trying to advise him when you don't understand yourself?
The design, materials, construction method, type of guitar, EVERYTHING effects the sound of the guitar. To try and explain it simply is impossible.
In answer to your specific question
On a guitar you have two scenarios at a basic level. Electric and acoustic. The string on an electric vibrates and the sound is amplified by a pickup of some description. The tone and timbre of that string is governed by many things. The energy of the string as it vibrates is lost resulting in decay. The energy is lost in three main ways. Heat (not important to us), transference (very important), and impedance (of some importance in the string but more so in the timber of the guitar). As the string vibrates it loses energy to the body of the instrument via the bridge and the nut and some to the air around it. This is transference. Some of the energy is reflected back down the string giving sustain to the note. The wave form that is reflected back down the string carries with it a "harmonic signature" from the body of the guitar. These comprise mostly of higher harmonics but not entirely. Impedance is the amount of energy that is lost internally in the material as is it does it's work. It is far more significant in the materials of the guitar than the string.
Acoustics are more complex. The same rules apply for the manner in which energy is lost the difference being that the note is amplified by the bridge vibrating on the soundboard. The sound you hear is a result not only of the nature of the wave form in the string but more importantly the vibrating of the soundboard. The materials used then become critical.
Sirnothingness
Banned
What exactly is an "average" guitar?
fastisgood
New member
To rephrase in English (great posts, muttley600, by the way), the reason wood is important is because of wood consistency. When private luthiers select the best tonewoods, they are basically looking to see how consistent the grain pattern in a given piece of wood is. This doesn't mean that wood with inconsistent grain is bad, though, just different. If you don't know what quartersawn wood is, look it up, because it is very important on how the wood resonates. The more consistent a piece of wood is, the more it will resonate. The more inconsistent a piece of wood is (bird's eye maple, for example) the less it will resonate, but the resonations will be more complex. This is why so many high gain metal players demand quarter sawn neck-thru construction: this yields the most resonant and straightforward tone, which is what many high gain players like. The cheaper the wood is, the more complex the overtones will be, but it will resonate less.
In all honestly, I think wood is given too much importance nowadays. Factors like construction quality and scale length play a much larger role in determining a guitar's overall sound. Suffice to say, I've played plenty of $4,000 I wouldn't pay $400 for, and I've played $400 guitars I would have paid $2,000 for. Guitars are a very subjective thing, and yes, there are the $300 guitars that are phenomenally constructed and got great pieces of wood, but it requires a very experienced ear and a lot of playing experience to be able to know.
muttley600
Banned
Please don't "rephrase" what I have said. If you don't understand what I have posted then you are a good way off understanding the basics of musical acoustics. Besides you have not rephrased what I said, you have completey failed to either read or grasp what I posted. What you have said is rubbish mostly. Just to put the record straight.
"Private Luthiers" whatever they are, do not select tonewood, on "how consistent the grain pattern in a given piece of wood is". We select timber on a very wide criteria which is entirely dependent on an understanding of how THAT timber will be used. Sometimes that includes a requirement that the timber is quarter cut.
Quarter sawn wood is preferred in some situations for it's stability. It has nothing to do with it's resonance. Please define consistent as far as wood is concerned and explain how it effects resonance? Like I said straight grain is preferred from a structural point of view. Slab cut or crown cut will have very similar acoustic properties.
Birdseye maple will resonate just fine. In fact it will resonate just like birdseye maple. The manner in which it behaves acoustically is no more or less complicated than any other timber. The "resonanations" will be unique in any piece of timber even within species.
Absolute, total and complete rubbish.
fastisgood
New member
Wow. That's saying a lot there. All of what you said is true, but not the most important factors in wood resonancy. It comes down to simple logic: Soundwaves will travel better through wood with consistent grain and density than through wood with varying densities and inconsistent grain. Maple is not a very resonant wood, and bird's eye maple is even less resonant that regular maple, because of the fact that it has knots in it. True, there are other factors that good luthiers look for other than consistency throughout a piece of wood, but the fact of the matter is that consistent wood is difficult to find (some woods more so than others) and that it costs a lot more to get this wood and even more to cut it quartersawn. This is one of the reasons inexpensive guitars can sound muddy (there are many other factors, obviously). muttley600, everything I've said is 100% true. I'm highly doubting you're actually speaking from work experience; as a technician and ametuer luthier I know what the important properties of wood are, and consistency, regardless of the type of wood, is the most important factor, period. I'm not trying to make enemies, but if you're gonna attack me, it has to be a valid attack
. You'll find that most of the high end retail, heavy metal electric guitars come with quartersawn necks. This is as much for stability as it is for tranference of tone. Sure, a plain sawn piece of wood can be fine as far as tone and stability are concerned, but there is no doubt that quarter sawn is usually the better choice.
muttley600
Banned
What are they then? Please tell. Resonancy is not a word by the way.
Wrong, Period. If you want a lesson in the acoustic properties of tonewoods I can give you one but you need to understand basic wave theory first and the manner in which sound waves in particular propagate. You don't.
Wrong again. On both counts. Where on earth did you get that from?
You are not a luthier, I am. You do not spend tens of thousands of dollars on timber each year, I do. You do not travel four continents to select it, I do. You do not know what you are talking about, I do. Please do not tell me what is the "fact of the matter" when you clearly don't have the first idea.
Far from it.
You are working on some very dubious assumptions that you have pieced together either entirely on your own or as a result of some idle chat with ill informed freinds. Please familiarise yourself with some of the basic FACTS before you start laying your opinion here.
Laughable. Another thing you clearly have no idea about.
I'm not attacking you other than to tell you not to represent your opinion as mine via "rephrasing" or presenting your very limited understanding as fact when it simply is not. You have not demonstrated an understanding of tonewoods on any level that is valid and your understanding as it is is simply incorrect. If you want to learn something about tonewoods, musical acoustics, or the mechanics of instrument making I can help you, but not until you agree to accept physics as the only source of the facts and experience as the only judge of what is left. If you want to discuss this further I want you to quote some hard facts.
groovyisland
hay wasa
from my experience there are guitars that vibrate more and guitars that vibrate less
guitars that vibrate more have more "tone"
guitars that vibrate less have more sustain
im talking about electric guitars of course
i prefer lightweight electric guitars that vibrate more
some people prefer heavy electric guitars that vibrate less
obviously very heavy les pauls are noted for their sustain
heavy guitars hurt my shoulder
i realize that this is a very simplistic point of view but it works for me
ive had expensive and very cheap guitars and i find that i like guitars that ive paid very little for brand-new
i replace the pickups and all the electronics and the tuning machines and sometimes the bridges
i also replace the nuts
theres nothing wrong with this strategy no matter what anybody says
guitars that vibrate more have more "tone"
guitars that vibrate less have more sustain
im talking about electric guitars of course
i prefer lightweight electric guitars that vibrate more
some people prefer heavy electric guitars that vibrate less
obviously very heavy les pauls are noted for their sustain
heavy guitars hurt my shoulder
i realize that this is a very simplistic point of view but it works for me
ive had expensive and very cheap guitars and i find that i like guitars that ive paid very little for brand-new
i replace the pickups and all the electronics and the tuning machines and sometimes the bridges
i also replace the nuts
theres nothing wrong with this strategy no matter what anybody says
groovyisland
hay wasa
i just looked at the warmoth site and got a chuckle out of the Tone-O-Meter used for the different body woods
tone is very subjective and when i say "more tone" i'm talking about something thats hard for me to describe
theres no doubt that weight and construction can affect tone
im sure some people would say that heavier guitars have more tone, generally speaking
it all depends on what you want and what sounds good to your ears
tone is very subjective and when i say "more tone" i'm talking about something thats hard for me to describe
theres no doubt that weight and construction can affect tone
im sure some people would say that heavier guitars have more tone, generally speaking
it all depends on what you want and what sounds good to your ears
fastisgood
New member
THIS IS TRUE!! YOU HAVE TO BE DEAF TO NOT REALIZE THIS!!!! Maple is not a resonant wood. It has a very fast decay. Poplar is a wood that is resonant. muttley600, I don't know if you think dense=resonance or what. I realize at this point there is no convincing you, and if you want to talk down to everyone else in the forum using terminology most people don't understand, feel free. You're more than entitled to your opinion, and all I was trying to do was emphasize the important points of wood in terms most people can grasp. There is nothing for me to prove, because what I'm saying is logic and common sense. Have a spectacular life.
fastisgood
New member
I do the same thing. My main guitar I'm using right now I paid $250 or so for (it was $500 list); I changed the nut, electronics, pots, and bridge pickup, and am looking at refretting the thing sometime soon. All it takes to find good modders is an experienced ear and the ability to know what you want in a guitar
.
Sirnothingness
Banned
What if I molded a guitar out of dog poop, how would that affect the sound?