Guitar won't tune, but intonation and neck are correct

B

BroncoBilly

New member
I'm stumped.

I have a Schecter 6-string Diamond...w/ the FloydRose bridge. I've set the intonation correctly using a very sensitive tuner, and have repeatedly and laboriously set the tuning on all 6 (new) strings. But when if I play E open, and D 2 frets up, the notes are so off, it makes me cringe. A chord sounds terrible. I have no idea what could cause this besides the frets being in the wrong spot. Since the guitar was a little on the cheap side, makes me wonder if Schecter did this on purpose for their cheaper models? Who gets the fret positions wrong?! The fretboard has nice action and the neck is nice and perfectly straight. The guitar hasn't been played much. I'm not asking "how do you tune a guitar", since I think I already know that. I'm more asking "what could cause a guitar to refuse to tune BESIDES the intonation being wrong and the neck being non-straight? Could they have gotten the bottom "nut" (lowest fret) wrong, somehow? Too far from the 1st fret? Anybody ever see this?
 
Is the neck relief/truss rod, and string height/action set up correctly?

How did you set the intonation...harmonics at 12th or some other method?
What tuner are you using...how sensitive is it really?
Try setting the intonation by only fretting at the 5th and 17th frets, and then balancing their differences so they are equally off if you can't set it so they are both perfect.

Also...how big are the frets?
If they are real jumbo frets...then you could get a noticeable difference between open and fretted notes.
I never tune or intonate to open strings because 95% of all my playing involves fretted notes and chords, so why use the open strings. If you play a lot of open strings, then you have to find a balance...which is harder.

Finally...the nut my need some rework if the string slots aren't right...which could be possible on a cheaper guitar.
 
For an experiment, block the floyd so that it doesn't move and see if the problem persists. If it doesn't, then it's just the bridge moving that is creating the tuning issues. If that isn't it, it's more likely the bridge is in the wrong place, than the nut.
 
BroncoBilly? How long have you been playing and how long have you had this guitar.

From what you're saying about it, it sounds like it's very much a metal/shred guitar so will have a flat fretboard and large frets. If you use too much digger pressure on a guitar like this you'll bend notes out of tune just by pressing hard enough to get the string into the fret board. You need a very light touch to play a guitar like this.
 
Yeah, funny how it's the little things. I'm 48 and have been playing since I was about 8. So... 40 years? I'm not using too much "digger pressure" (first time I've heard it called that), just the lightest touch on the frets. The tuner is a PolyTune, and the bridge couldn't possibly be in the wrong spot, not from the way it's designed....

So yeah, I started to notice what miroslav was talking about, balancing out the differences. If I set the intonation "just right", the lower fretted notes are slightly flat, and the upper fretted notes are slightly sharp (on the same string). Since I play a lot of bar chords, I'm going to set the intonation so the 5th frets are right, not necessarily open strings vs. 12th fret. I should have known this...The frets themselves aren't really what I would call "that big", they're "normal".

Thanks, all.
 
It's mathematically impossible to have perfect intonation, so maybe what you have is normal.
Those new strings might need a break in period or maybe the ball didn't seat right on one of them, and is putting unequal tension on the bridge.

if you figure it out let us know what the problem was.
 
The bridge being in the wrongs spot is more likely than the frets being in the wrong spot is all I was saying. Both are really unlikely.
 
BroncoBilly said:
So yeah, I started to notice what miroslav was talking about, balancing out the differences. If I set the intonation "just right", the lower fretted notes are slightly flat, and the upper fretted notes are slightly sharp (on the same string). Since I play a lot of bar chords, I'm going to set the intonation so the 5th frets are right, not necessarily open strings vs. 12th fret. I should have known this...The frets themselves aren't really what I would call "that big", they're "normal".
Click to expand...

I play 95% barre chords...very rarely do I play open chords in the first 3 frets...so I simply don't care about open string tuning...it's not accurate for my fretted playing.

You can do the intonation as you prefer...but I've fought the same issues as you for a long time, getting the guitar balanced just right so my barre chords and my leads all sounded pretty much in tune up/down the neck...and the intonation method I mentioned previously has made a big difference.

This is it in detail:
Press at the 5th fret and using a good tuner (I prefer a strobe for intonation) get that in tune.
Now press at the 17th fret (which is the octave up) and see how sharp/flat it is.
Sometimes you can get them both in perfect tune...but usually the 17th fret will be either sharp or flat.
So then you adjust your bridge saddle...and of course, as you get the 17th closer to in-tune, the 5th fret will start to go out.
Then, what you want is to find the balance point where the 5th and the 17th are *equally out*...so like one will be a few ticks sharp, and the other a few ticks flat...and that's the best you'll get for that string.
Sometimes, they may both fall perfectly in tune on a given string...and that's good...the ones that don't, you get both 5th and 17th to be as close as you can...and their individual, yet equal, offset in opposite directions is what balances them out.

You'll find that with this approach to intonation if you play mostly fretted notes/chords...you'll be able to play up/down the neck with a lot less sourness overall.
Of course, there's always some combinations of chords that are a bit problematic, with one chord not sounding as good as the rest (usually a minor chord)...and of course, you still have to temper your tuning to your playing and taste after you've set the intonation per above method.

You can get totally anal and do the octave spread at a few spots...adding others, like the 3rd and 15th...7th and 19th...etc...and you find and overall offset balance between ALL those notes...
...but I find the 5th and 17th are good enough for Rock & Roll, and I don't want to waste 2 hours intonating one guitar. :D
 
Have you tried capo on the first fret, and then tuning the guitar to that. I wonder if the problem is that all the frets are in the right place, apart from the nut? Has it ever played properly?
 
Very few guitars even cheap ones have frets or bridges in the wrong place. In the world of CNC machining this is almost an impossibility. If one is wrong, thousands are wrong.
They tend to work all that stuff out in the prototyping stage.
More than likely it is a set up issue, a common culprit is a nut that is too high.
Floyds have issues as well being floating. Intonation on a floyd should be done with it blocked. By blocked I mean not moving and in a perfectly level position.
 
The PolyTune will tell me whatever fretted note I'm playing is sharp or flat, within several HZ. When I'm testing out different fretted notes on the same string, the lower fretted notes appear "flat", about the 5th or 7th fretted note is "exact" and the higher fretted notes are very slightly "sharp". I never knew I couldn't get intonation exactly right, I've had several other guitars that are so close, I've never noticed this to be an issue. This is the first guitar that has taken several hours (plus) to tune correctly. I'm still trying to figure out "what that means" when the flat/sharp thing happens above, or if it's just something I live with. I'm going to try the capo thing and see if that changes anything. I wonder if it's a nut-in-the-wrong-place issue! Thanks, rob.
 
BroncoBilly said:
I wonder if it's a nut-in-the-wrong-place issue! Thanks, rob.
Click to expand...

See my above post.


As to taking several hours to tune? Well, thats a serious problem with your tuner, your guitar or maybe even you.

Let's talk about the guitar.
All 6 string instruments use a ' compensated' scale. This means that all the fret positions are 'almost' right. Not perfect but almost right.

A guitar is tough because you have different thickness and wound as well as unwound strings sharing the same frets to produce the same and different notes. So they compromise.

Nut height, neck bow, overall action and fret size as well as condition, all affect intonation.

When frets wear unevenly, the center point of the fret (should be the highest spot) can be sharp or flat. A good fret dress should correct this.

My advice as one who works on these things for a living, is to take it to a competent tech. NO GUITAR CENTER SETUP.

If a good setup doesn't fix it up, offload the instrument, you got a dog.

Good luck.
 
miroslav said:
Is the neck relief/truss rod, and string height/action set up correctly?
Click to expand...

Btw, op, this is very likely the problem. If you have too much relief and/or high action the fretted string has to travel further so when you press down notes will go sharp.

Are your new strings the same gauge? I find it weird this happened when you changed strings. Maybe see if any are dead, too. I've heard floyd rose bridges are a nightmare to setup, though I have never owned one to confirm...

I'd personally futz with it for a few hours, and if nothing improves take it to a good luthier.

It's not just you. All guitars are a nightmare to intonate and we all play slightly out of tune. Here's a good tapeop article for you:
MORE Guitar Tuning Nightmares & How to Vanquish Them (or at Least Feel Good Trying) | Tape Op Magazine | Longform candid interviews with music producers and audio engineers covering mixing, mastering, recording and music production.
 
I thought this was interesting from the article:

The G (and B) string drives people crazy on the guitar. They tune it, then play a C chord or A minor chord, but the G string sounds wrong. Fuzz and distortion makes the wrongness even more apparent. So they tune the G string by ear so that chord is in tune... and then all the other chords sound wrong. Way down there at the first fret, all your intonation acrobatics (which mostly affect the other end of the string!) will be of little use, so what do you do? Sigh wearily... and look for another guitar, which might fix the problem... sorta.

The explanation won't make you happy. In the "first position," meaning for chord shapes that are mostly on the first couple frets on the guitar, the G string is often used for the upper part of a musical interval called a "third," either major or minor third. (This musical notation is not to be confused with "third harmonics" — it's a totally different thing.) In an ideal world, a "major third" is two notes (a "diad") whose frequencies are in a ratio of 5 to 4, or 1.25, while a "minor third" is in a ratio of 6 to 5, or 1.2. If those ratios are true, these diads (note pairs) sound wonderfully in tune and harmonious.

Here's where it gets hairy. In our 12-tone scale, where all the notes are equally spaced, no pair of them are exactly in a 1.2 or 1.25 ratio. If you pull out your calculator and multiply 1.05946 by itself a few times, you'll land on 1.189, and next, 1.2599! The first one is actually 15 cents flat from where your ears will want a minor third to be, and the second is 14 cents sharp from where a major third should be! So if you tune a chord "by ear" that includes a major third, that same chord with a minor third substituted in it will be 29 cents out of tune...almost a third of a half-step. (Cue: wailing and gnashing of teeth.)
Click to expand...

And..

But, pile on a bunch of fuzz/distortion (which nakedly reveals tuning problems) and place those "third" notes right on the first fret of the guitar, and you have the ultimate homicidal-suicidal tuning nightmare. And there's little you can do about it. When a musician with a song including lots of first position complex chords notices this problem, they (and you) can go nuts trying to get the guitar in tune. There are actually chord progressions that simply cannot be played completely in tune on some guitars, period
Click to expand...

:mad:

So basically we can't play chords in first position.
Which guitars are best for overcoming this? I'd guess fixed bridges. I have a gretsch and strat, and the intonations are pretty good, but I do notice the 3rds are a little messed up. I'm thinking I should pin the bridges. Do Les Pauls have these problems?
 
yeah this is the answer (above). I just can't get it into precise tune. I never knew this before today. That PolyTune is just too damned precise. Amazing little gadget for $50.
 
Life is too short to have/play a guitar that won't tune properly. I'm no fan of the Floyd system but a good one should not cause problems.
I think I'd dump it and move on.
 
Nola said:
I thought this was interesting from the article:



And..



:mad:

So basically we can't play chords in first position.
Which guitars are best for overcoming this? I'd guess fixed bridges. I have a gretsch and strat, and the intonations are pretty good, but I do notice the 3rds are a little messed up. I'm thinking I should pin the bridges. Do Les Pauls have these problems?
Click to expand...

I'll admit to being a bit of a PRS fanboy but try one of their trem (core) models. They stay in tune freakishly well.
 
Nola said:
Do Les Pauls have these problems?
Click to expand...

Mine don't. I don't understand how or why people have this much trouble with tuning and intonation. I play first position chords literally all the time and it's no problem. A good setup on a good guitar solves all of this. It's a miracle that anyone could ever play guitar at all if they're this troublesome. The simple truth is, they aren't.

Les Pauls do have a problem with the G and B string staying in tune, but that's a modern manufacturing flaw. The Gibson folks don't know how to cut nuts anymore.
 
[/QUOTE]The Gibson folks don't know how to cut nuts anymore.[/QUOTE]

They havent since the 50s lol.

Corian, pleck machine =》fail :D
 
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