Guitar recording, distortion and buzz

[ecc83]

Something I forgot: I get the buzz even with a laptop running on batteries/totally unplugged from the wall.

Yes, you will. This is NOT an earth/ground loop problem, it is straight mains hum pickup amplified digitally TF!

Dave.

 

[jimistone]

Nizhny, why did you say "60Hz hum" in your first post? *

The attached spectrum clearly shows a dominant 50Hz component then 100Hz then a mid band mess. The latter is due to the fact that amp sims can use enormous DIGTAL gains without the constraints of hiss and microphony associated with analogue electronics.
No free lunch though because it still amplifies all the crap from the guitar that it picks up from the 'ether' !

Re the hand, hum string thing? I would intuitively think a properly shielded guitar WITH the strings bonded to the bridge AND the bridge bonded to jack earth would not hum differently whether touched or no. IF this is the case I would be suspicious of the quality of the equipment or/and mains earthing?

In the annyloggy amp world you can have an amplifier that has a very respectable signal to noise ration of 50dB below full power (that's bloody good for a valve gitamp!) but switch in the OD channel, if it has one, and this can degrade hugely to worse than 20dB below FP. Fact of electronic life I am afraid. Plug in a guitar and things all go to H in a pram!

* So, where TF ARE you?

Dave.(btw, yes as someone said, most DAWs have a 'visulizer' but they are often not very precise at hum frequencies)

I have done a lot of pickup swapping in my guitars through the years and every time I had a hum problem, that quieted when I touched the strings, ended up being a ground issue. 60 cycle hum (which I think is what he may have ment with "60 htz") hums no matter whether you touch the strings or not. You can pivet around in a complete circle and there be 2 points where the hum is the quietest (polar opposite of each other) and there will be two points where the hum is loudest (also polar opposite of each other.) Also, and hum no matter how slight will be manified 10 fold by any distortion or crunch you add.
So, you can shield and properly ground your guitar, pivot you position around until you get the least 60 cycle hum, and tweak the balance between pre gain and post gain on you amp, and/or tone down the fake distortion.

That's really about all you can do short of using a noise gate

 

[miroslav]

That's really about all you can do short of using a noise gate

Play loud...drown out the buzz.

 

[ecc83]

Got up early to do some tests..
Guitar, Chinese 'Fender' Tele. Kit, A&H ZED10 (HZ input) 10mtr Neutrik supplied cable with 'Silentplug. Mixer feeds balanced out 5mtr XLRs to traff box which feed a 2496.

Daw Samplitude SE8. Level best I could manage, mid neck full 'A' strum with nails set gain to peak -10 dBFS (mono mix) Git pots full, zed chan level '0' zed Main Out '0' Pulling plug from guitar (short at end of cable) -82dBFS pk -91rms.

Front pup best orientation -71pk -83rms
ctr " " -75pk -85rms
brdg pup " " -67pk -80rms

The guitar was in my hands and the chair centre some 880mm from the PC and 1400mm from the mixer. These were the only powered devices in the room.

I then parked the guitar in the porch some 5mtrs from mixer etc. -75dBFS pk -87rms. Clearly the further you can get from house 'lektrik' the better! There is also clearly some phase cancellation going on.

The spectrums show the guitar to be far 'dirtier' than the mixer baseline noise* The less than stellar hum performance of the system is a known foible, does not impinge on any 'real life' recording. 'A' weighted noise would be a good 6dB lower.
If I have a chance I shall repeat some of the tests with the KA6 and a laptop on battery power. I would not expect much improvement in guitar noise but baseline should be better.

*Do NOT think that the system noise is anywhere near -130dB ! That is a function of RightMark analyser, graphs for comparison only.

Helpful?

Dave.

 

[ecc83]

Aw ***K! All my careful lining up of words has gone to ***T!

Dave.

 

[RFR]

I have done a lot of pickup swapping in my guitars through the years and every time I had a hum problem, that quieted when I touched the strings, ended up being a ground issue.

Jimistone, you suprise me being a vintage strat afficionado with your understanding. (Unless I am misinterpreting what you are defining as a "ground issue".

All factory stock vintage strats are NOT shielded and the middle pup is NOT wound to give you noise cancelation in the middle positions. And dependent upon year, sometimes middle positions don't even exist due to having a 3 way instead of 5 way switch.
ALL single coils buzz, or hum or whatever you want to call it.listen to any live Hendrix recording and you can hear it.

ALL strats also have a string ground, and when you are touching the strings the hum decreases. This is normal and the nature of the beast.

I suppose in theory, it should all ground out via the cable shield and the grounding in the amp, but in the real world your body is part of the ground. If that wasn't the case, there would not be a string ground.

On Norlin era Les pauls, they omitted the string ground entirely and shielded the guitar by enclosing the components in those metal cans.
However, despite the pickups being "humbuckers" and the shielding, they still hummed. Installing a proper string ground solved that, but as soon as your hand released from anything metal, the hum returned.

I build and repair guitars for a living and have worked on thousands of electrics and built in excess of 500 instruments ( not counting parts-casters) over my 37 some years of doing this.

It is normal for a guitar to make more noise when you remove your hands.

Shielding helps reduce noise, but not 100%.
The ONLY instruments that I've come across that are truly 'noise free' are those that have active pickups.

To bring up the Norlin Les Paul example again.... I've had clients that gigged with their guitar for years and never noticed it.

Until.......they went into the studio.

In the studio EVERYTHING is magnified.

Most guys never complain about the noises their instruments make untill it's studio time.

In today's age with the home studio, and with super clean digital recording, more noises are more apparent than ever before.

Also, and this is just my opinion, I think we live in a more electrical noisy world. There's a lot of juice flowing around and there's a lot of stuff in the air. I don't know the impact of things like cell towers and wifi, but I'm sure it has some effect. And all these damn "smart" appliances and tvs. Our hardlines and airwaves are polluted.

So as to solutions, shield your guitar, maybe upgrade pickups. (Good pups have a higher signal to noise ratio), clean up the juice in your home with a power conditioner, stay off off lines that are shared with motors. (Fans, fridge, a/c units ets).

As to upgrades on your guitar, everything makes a difference. Good pickups, good quality pots, switches, good caps, as well as wire. I've found the good old 50s style wire with the braided shield to be quieter than the modern foil shield wire. A lot of little things all add up. For strats it's a bit too much to try to rewire with the shielded wire, so copper shielding is a viable option.

Also experiment with times when there is less electrical activity going on.

Also, check your cables and your amp.
A shitty cable can make a hell of a lot of noise as well as a faulty or crap amp.

Ps, an old trick for in the studio. Attach a wire from anything metal on your guitar and tape it to you body. That way when you remove your hand from the strings, the string ground is still active.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[ecc83]

Should have said..In my tests the strings were earthed to the bridge and the bridge connected to the jack earth. In my test it did not matter whether I touched a string or not. Once the 'blip' had subsided, noise read exactly the same.

I also IMPLORE people NOT to tape wire to their bodies NOR touch earthed objects whilst holding a hummy guitar! Certainly don't in UK* 240 volt land!

If you come across a situation where a guitar and amp seem noisier than you would expect the FIRST thing to do is check that the amp IS earthed and do that first of all by a continuity check twixt chassis an plug earth pin. If that is ok (less then 1 Ohm or so) go on to check the earth in the mains and do that by measuring from a known earth, water pipe say, to amp chassis. Do not at ANY time get yourself between a suspect system, amp/git/mic and 'true' earth.


*Consumer units in UK have had RCD trips built in for some years now (I fitted a breaker box to my old house a few years ago) but PLEASE use an RCD in the power diss system for your guitar rig!

Dave

 

[RFR]

Should have said..In my tests the strings were earthed to the bridge and the bridge connected to the jack earth. In my test it did not matter whether I touched a string or not. Once the 'blip' had subsided, noise read exactly the same.

I also IMPLORE people NOT to tape wire to their bodies NOR touch earthed objects whilst holding a hummy guitar! Certainly don't in UK* 240 volt

Haha. Lol.? I wasn't recomending that, just mentioning it as an old trick that some people have used.

However, it is no different than having your hand on the strings. Either way your body is attached to the string ground.

Now providing there are no electrical issues, it's perfectly safe. You dont get shocked playing your guitar. And if you did feel a tingle when you touched the strings, you'd know something was wrong, now wouldn't you.

I highly agree with you on making sure your amp is properly grounded.

But if you're disputing that touching the strings makes the guitar quieter, you're wrong....or maybe the UK is different. Lol.?

You've done your test on one guitar in what appears to be one environment.

I've tested thousands of guitars and basses in many different environments.

And one for one, in every case..... you touch the bridge it's quieter, you remove your hand it's noisier.
The amount of noise varies from guitar to guitar and in different electrical environments, but it always increases once you remove your hand.

Riddle me this batman, why is a string ground even there? In your thinking, it seems you don't think it's needed.

Got me thinking of an old idea. Take my old pignose amp and my old strat, and go into the middle of nowhere, and see how the noise is.
Only thing stopping me to date is having to buy "D" size batteries that I have no other use for than my pignose. Lol.?

 

[ecc83]

"I highly agree with you on making sure your amp is properly grounded.

But if you're disputing that touching the strings makes the guitar quieter, you're wrong....or maybe the UK is different. Lol.��

You've done your test on one guitar in what appears to be one environment.

I've tested thousands of guitars and basses in many different environments.

And one for one, in every case..... you touch the bridge it's quieter, you remove your hand it's noisier.
The amount of noise varies from guitar to guitar and in different electrical environments, but it always increases once you remove your hand.

Riddle me this batman, why is a string ground even there? In your thinking, it seems you don't think it's needed."

I am sorry RFR but, WTGR you are 'rambling a bit. I do not dispute that the whole guitar/amp setup needs to be earthed. Primarily from a safety point of view and for lowest noise so let us leave that one hailed?

You may have tested many, many guitars in many situations but I am the one who have come up with actual numbers. The effect of touching the strings was just something I tried in passing. I saw NO effect on the noise but I am quite prepared to have another go. It will be interesting to see hoe a fully 'floating' system with the KA6 the lappy behaves?

There is a WORLD of difference between momentarily touch a string (to see if it 'tingles'/hurts!) and being PERMANENTLY tied to earth and hope you are able to move and pull the wire! Do not try this at home kids! Especially OUR homes! I have worked with moderately high voltages for over 50 years (up to 3kV, M'Waves) and had my share of shocks and it has invariably been due to MY inattention (guns are ALWAYS loaded. Kit is ALWAYS live until you check!)

If you RFR or others have any tests I have not thought of that you would like checking please speak up.

Dave

 

[ecc83]

Attached are shots from my KA6.
Same baseline 'A' hitting around -10dBFS in Sam SE8. The signals have been boosted digitally by about 40dB. They progress from the neck pup, switch centre and bridge pup and finally the noise of the KA6 with the plug pulled from the guitar.

The 'clang' heard about 1/2 way through each clip is me VERY carefully putting my hand on the strings. I personally cannot hear or see any change?

OP: The harsh nature of the sounds is just what you get with an amp sim because of the massive boost. You get something similar with high gain pedals but they usually roll the HF off a bit to cut the edge.

Dave.

 

[jimistone]

Jimistone, you suprise me being a vintage strat afficionado with your understanding. (Unless I am misinterpreting what you are defining as a "ground issue".

All factory stock vintage strats are NOT shielded and the middle pup is NOT wound to give you noise cancelation in the middle positions. And dependent upon year, sometimes middle positions don't even exist due to having a 3 way instead of 5 way switch.
ALL single coils buzz, or hum or whatever you want to call it.listen to any live Hendrix recording and you can hear it.

ALL strats also have a string ground, and when you are touching the strings the hum decreases. This is normal and the nature of the beast.

I suppose in theory, it should all ground out via the cable shield and the grounding in the amp, but in the real world your body is part of the ground. If that wasn't the case, there would not be a string ground.

On Norlin era Les pauls, they omitted the string ground entirely and shielded the guitar by enclosing the components in those metal cans.
However, despite the pickups being "humbuckers" and the shielding, they still hummed. Installing a proper string ground solved that, but as soon as your hand released from anything metal, the hum returned.

I build and repair guitars for a living and have worked on thousands of electrics and built in excess of 500 instruments ( not counting parts-casters) over my 37 some years of doing this.

It is normal for a guitar to make more noise when you remove your hands.

Shielding helps reduce noise, but not 100%.
The ONLY instruments that I've come across that are truly 'noise free' are those that have active pickups.

To bring up the Norlin Les Paul example again.... I've had clients that gigged with their guitar for years and never noticed it.

Until.......they went into the studio.

In the studio EVERYTHING is magnified.

Most guys never complain about the noises their instruments make untill it's studio time.

In today's age with the home studio, and with super clean digital recording, more noises are more apparent than ever before.

Also, and this is just my opinion, I think we live in a more electrical noisy world. There's a lot of juice flowing around and there's a lot of stuff in the air. I don't know the impact of things like cell towers and wifi, but I'm sure it has some effect. And all these damn "smart" appliances and tvs. Our hardlines and airwaves are polluted.

So as to solutions, shield your guitar, maybe upgrade pickups. (Good pups have a higher signal to noise ratio), clean up the juice in your home with a power conditioner, stay off off lines that are shared with motors. (Fans, fridge, a/c units ets).

As to upgrades on your guitar, everything makes a difference. Good pickups, good quality pots, switches, good caps, as well as wire. I've found the good old 50s style wire with the braided shield to be quieter than the modern foil shield wire. A lot of little things all add up. For strats it's a bit too much to try to rewire with the shielded wire, so copper shielding is a viable option.

Also experiment with times when there is less electrical activity going on.

Also, check your cables and your amp.
A shitty cable can make a hell of a lot of noise as well as a faulty or crap amp.

Ps, an old trick for in the studio. Attach a wire from anything metal on your guitar and tape it to you body. That way when you remove your hand from the strings, the string ground is still active.

Hope some of this helps.

Vintage strats were most certainly sheilded. I still have a 1966 and have had experience with scores of them. The shielding on a vintage strat is a thin metal plate, the same size as the pickguard, beneath the pickguard. The pickup screws and pickup switch hold this plate to the bottom of the pickguard. Fender switched to that cheesy tin foil shit that is stuck to the pickguard...probably to cut costs. The thin plate is vastly superior fo the tin foil IMHO. All shielding does is tone down the 60 cycle hum. It does nothing to lower hum from improper grounding.
Yes....you will have SOME grounding hum and touching the strings will quiet it. But, on a properly grounded strat it is barely audible. On my 1966 strat with vintage...no reverse wound middle pu....it is barely audible if audible at all. It has been my experience, when doing pickup swaps on strats and les pauls, that when there is a highly audible hum that quiets when you touch the strings you have a grounding problem.

Normally a bad solder joint or a damaged wire.

That has been my experience and I stand behind that 100%

 

[Nizhny Tagil]

OP: The harsh nature of the sounds is just what you get with an amp sim because of the massive boost. You get something similar with high gain pedals but they usually roll the HF off a bit to cut the edge.

That's exactly what I usually do as a way around, beside a noise gate: cutting the highs. It seems to be even more effective than turning down the gain/compression/distortion.
I've noticed overdrive modeling plug-ins tend to boost the high mids, and that's where the noise is more prominent.

 

[ecc83]

Hi Jimstone, my tests were done with a Tele (I have a crap Strat copy but that is in poor electrical shape) and I don't know if it is shielded, I shall open it up soon and have a shufti.

There may be something in the USA to UK mains distribution system? Almost all our juice comes out of the road in an armoured cable (which of course is a fooking great shield. The shield gets maybe 1/2 mtr into the dwelling then the neutral is bonded to it* and that becomes the local earth. Each power and lighting circuit is 3 core, live, neutral and earth. Any electrical device made of metal must be bonded to that earth and this must cut down electrostatic radiation almost entirely. Transformers will of course still radiate a magnetic field.

From what I see on films, US power is overhead (11kV?) to pole pigs then again over head at 230/115V to homes. Not a 'quiet' I would aver?

Dave.

 

[ecc83]

* Gah! Forgot! (old, meds you know) There are several earthing regimes I understand? I am not a power engineer but MY place is 'PME'ed . Protective Multiple Earthing.

Dave.

 

[RFR]

Vintage strats were most certainly sheilded. I still have a 1966 and have had experience with scores of them. The shielding on a vintage strat is a thin metal plate, the same size as the pickguard, beneath the pickguard. The pickup screws and pickup switch hold this plate to the bottom of the pickguard. Fender switched to that cheesy tin foil shit that is stuck to the pickguard...probably to cut costs. The thin plate is vastly superior fo the tin foil IMHO. All shielding does is tone down the 60 cycle hum. It does nothing to lower hum from improper grounding.
Yes....you will have SOME grounding hum and touching the strings will quiet it. But, on a properly grounded strat it is barely audible. On my 1966 strat with vintage...no reverse wound middle pu....it is barely audible if audible at all. It has been my experience, when doing pickup swaps on strats and les pauls, that when there is a highly audible hum that quiets when you touch the strings you have a grounding problem.

Normally a bad solder joint or a damaged wire.

That has been my experience and I stand behind that 100%

True on the metal plate. I did not mention the metal under the pickguard.
That wasnt brought up. because to me it doesnt count as full shielding. Full shielding is where the entire electronics are encased in metal. Currently fender does this with shielding paint.
My observation with vintage strats is that the pickups are wonderful. Very high signal to noise ratio.
I had a conversation with Lyndy Fralin once about his strat pickups and asked him how he managed to wind, not only good sounding vintage replica pickups, but quiet ones. He just laughed and said nothing. The man knows his craft.


I still stand behind my statements of the string ground being touched decreasing the buzz 100% as well.

To be fair, 90%of the time I'm checking in a shop filled with fluorescent lights which while great for visibility in a shop, introduce noise.

What I hear in the shop won't be so apparent in a normal playing environment.

 

[RFR]

@ ecc83

You accuse me of rambling?

I beg your pardon, sir.

It seems to me you ramble and ramble in almost every posting you make.

While it's apparent you have some good electronics knowlege, you go on and on and on.

I'll often think to myself, oh boy, there goes Dave again. But thats ok, your knowledge is invaluable.

Anyway, im done here.

 

[ecc83]

Thank you kindly RFR.

No my Tele does not have a wafer of shielding. I shall get some copper tape the morrow and do it to it. Might as well get a set of strings while I am at it, these have gone a bit rusty. Player is in France you see.

Dave.

 

[RFR]

Tele is a great design. The control plate acts as a shield. The bridge pickup is encased in the bridge, and the neck pickup is in its own metal case.

 

[ecc83]

Tele is a great design. The control plate acts as a shield. The bridge pickup is encased in the bridge, and the neck pickup is in its own metal case.

Not this Chinese 'Fender' I am afraid. The control cavity is bare wood, the cover of the neck pickup it NOT bonded to earth and none of the pup wires are screened. Mind you, the noise levels were about where I expected them to be from tests I did some years ago. Will get it sorted and report.

Dave.

 

[RFR]

It doesn't have a metal plate where the knobs and pots are attached ?? Or are you saying the cavity is un-shielded??

Edit: I keep on getting sucked into this conversation. I'm out. Have fun guys.