Guitar finishing question or two...

pikingrin

pikingrin

what is this?
So I've been watching hours and hours of youtube videos and reading stewmac stuff relating to finishing techniques, which is maybe putting the cart before the horse as I'm not convinced I have a body shape (or electronics and hardware) nailed down yet. The only thing I know is that it's going to be a mahogany body with a flame maple top.

I have been playing around with the dyes that I got though and that is where my main two questions come into play. Is there any difference on how the dyes react when thinned with water versus alcohol? I got a can of denatured alcohol to thin them out and the results were so-so on my first try. Wondering if there would be a difference in the tint if water was used to thin it out though.

My second question is in regards to testing media. I've just been playing around with a piece of scrap edge-glued pine (I've got quite a few laying around) and I'm wondering if that's a good idea or not. I'm not expecting much from the mahogany, it's going to be dyed black, but the flame maple is another story. I will have scraps once I cut the body shape but I was kind of trying to get my technique down using pine - if the colors will translate the same... Any thoughts?
 
It kinda depends on how picky you are. I'll admit I've never done a guitar, but in general, stain reacts differently on different woods. So if you're just expecting something in the ballpark, then maybe, but as for a fairly dead-on match, I don't think so. But then I don't know about dye, which might react differently than stain. I would assume, though, that there's going to be a difference in absorbtion between the two woods. Go to Northwest Lumber on Lafayette (about 46th or so) and see how small a piece of maple you can get. You can probably even find flamed maple there. That place is like heaven. I could spend all day just fondling the wood.
 
Hardware stores used to have displays by the wood stain, showing what the different colors would look like on several different common furniture woods. That's enough to tell me that they're not going to be the same.
 
Let me hijack this momentarily and ask, what do you do if you've got the mahogany and you just want to finish it to look like the 'natural' mahogany from old laquered Les Pauls? Does it need a stain or tinted laquer to 'age' it, or will it darken appropriately with just a clear laquer finish? Or should you use something else?
 
Old Lps were done with the color being in the pore filler.
Many believe the guitar was stained or dyed. But in reality it was just the color in the pore filler itself.

It started out red. Bright red. But it was an analine dye which isn't light fast. Then clear went on top.
So you had two separate distinct things going on.

1) The red faded
2) The clearcoat yellowed

This gave a look that went anywhere from red, to orange, to brown, depending on the amount of fade and ambering.


To the OP;

Just experiment. Remember, everything changes every thing.

Practice on scraps of the SAME exact wood you are building it out of.
play around till you get the color you want.
 
Use pieces from the maple top when you get it cut. Experiment a lot.

Stains and dyes are two different things.

Go back through my bass build thread. I didn't have flamed maple to start with and so I didn't get the results I wanted. Though now that it's done, it's extremely cool looking and beautiful in its own way.

I never tried dyes with water, I always used denatured alcohol. One of the nice things with alcohol is after putting different dyes on the body, you can blend them together by rubbing a rag soaked with alcohol. A little practice and you can get them to meld together nicely.

I just reread what I wrote. Let me explain what I meant better....

I put the dyes on the body with alcohol. Then later went back and blended them into a sunburst by wiping a rag with only alcohol on it and working it into a sunburst.
 
Using alcohol also has the side benefit of not raising the grain as much as water does.

I'll usually, before using the dye, pre-wet the maple with a damp rag. Then sand off the "fuzz"
Helps for more even absorption as well.

Again, experiment.
:D
 
RFR said:
Old Lps were done with the color being in the pore filler.
Many believe the guitar was stained or dyed. But in reality it was just the color in the pore filler itself.

It started out red. Bright red. But it was an analine dye which isn't light fast. Then clear went on top.
So you had two separate distinct things going on.

1) The red faded
2) The clearcoat yellowed

This gave a look that went anywhere from red, to orange, to brown, depending on the amount of fade and ambering.
Click to expand...

I don't have anything to add to this thread. I've never refinished a guitar. I just like this section of this post because I think it's historically interesting. I don't think many people know that the now-famous golden-tan-brown bursts of those late 50s LPs actually started out quite red. Many of them quickly faded to brown-ish as they sat in storefront windows or sat on stands. Remove the pickguard on an actual 58 or 59 and chances are it will be pretty reddish under there. Even Gibson Custom Shop recreates red spots and weird shadow fade marks on their 59 reissues. If a famous example of a 59 sat in a window and part of it was obscured from the sun's rays, they'll recreate that un-faded shadow spot. Anyway, I just think it's interesting. The faded burst finish is THE most revered burst type finish on LPs. No one recreates them back to their original red.
 
You got that right. ^^^

In my post I was referring to the mahogany part of the guitar.

Now the top. That wasnt stained or dyed either.

First a translucent yellow paint was sprayed on the maple. Then the burst was sprayed, with analine dyes being added to the lacquer. Again, red. Bright red. To add some vibrance to the color, blue was added. Clear coats on top of the burst.

You have the same two aspects happening to the top as the back. The color is fading and the clear is ambering.

The guitars came with a hang tag that was rectangular in shape that was on the switch tip. Some examples hung in the store window too long and now have a faded out reddish/brownish/ orange spot there.

For some reason the yellow never really fades, so once all the burst fades out, it remsins. You get that honey look, or what people sometimes call a lemon drop.

Very few people can replicate a vintage burst accurately. I've come damn close, but there are some english chaps and a few americans that fucking nail it.

I find the subtle variations quite a thing of beauty.

Yeah, ive seen and studied a few.:D

Anyway, enough rambling. Carry on.
:D
 
Cardio - I'll check that lumber place out and see if I can get some maple to test out my techniques.

Chili - I've got your bass build and one of Muttley's old threads bookmarked for quick references. That's good to know about blending with the alcohol though; that will hopefully make life a bit easier.

RFR - I've seen that in the majority of the youtube videos I've been watching. Pre-moisten with water to raise the grain and sand back before applying the dye.

I suppose that I was just a little too hopeful in regards to results across species of wood. At any rate it will push me to get the body cut sooner so I've got some scraps to practice on. Off to go snag a piece of MDF for template making! :thumbs up:
 
RFR said:
In my post I was referring to the mahogany part of the guitar.
Click to expand...

Well, that's what I was asking the question about, anyway.

So if I want to make an 'aged' looking finish for the mahogany part, what would need to be added to what?
 
greenpine.JPG
I think I've got my color mixture figured out... 3 drops of bright green, 2 drops of black mixed in alcohol. This is just a pine sample, won't have a chance to go snag a piece of scrap maple til Friday at the earliest. Got my template cut, going with a standard Tele body since it seemed like the easiest starter shape, going to start the shaping this weekend...pics to follow.
 
notCardio said:
Well, that's what I was asking the question about, anyway.

So if I want to make an 'aged' looking finish for the mahogany part, what would need to be added to what?
Click to expand...
Get some powdered analine dye from luthiers merchantile.
Mix it according to directions, dye the mahogany, lacquer it with a bit of amber tint in the clear.

Set in the sun till desired fade occurs. It may take quite a few suntanning sessions.

Stew mac transtint dyes won't fade much at all. They are metallic dyes designed to retain the color.

---------- Update ----------

pikingrin said:
View attachment 94487
I think I've got my color mixture figured out... 3 drops of bright green, 2 drops of black mixed in alcohol. This is just a pine sample, won't have a chance to go snag a piece of scrap maple til Friday at the earliest. Got my template cut, going with a standard Tele body since it seemed like the easiest starter shape, going to start the shaping this weekend...pics to follow.
Click to expand...

Looks good. :D
 
RFR said:
Get some powdered analine dye from luthiers merchantile.
Mix it according to directions, dye the mahogany, lacquer it with a bit of amber tint in the clear.

Set in the sun till desired fade occurs. It may take quite a few suntanning sessions.

Stew mac transtint dyes won't fade much at all. They are metallic dyes designed to retain the color.
Click to expand...

So how would I know what color dye to get?
 
Boy, you're full of questions. :D
I dunno, you decide. They all strarted out red. So get red if thats what you want.
As far as a vintage accurate look, I'm not giving away any color formulas.
:D
 
Ok. So what about finishing over existing finishing? I wanted to work on something easy (and already "done") so after I cut out my Tele body (rough cut only) I took the belt sander to that old Epi LP Special II and stripped all of the paint off of the body. The neck is being taken to bare wood with a gel stripper so I don't jack the profile up with a sander.

I'm to the point, however, that I'm ready to put a sealing finish on the body while I wait for the upgraded electronics to show up. The problem is that I didn't get all the way down to bare wood in a few places; I'm not sure what it is though - if it's sanding sealer, shellac, some kind of lacquer - I don't know. What would be the easiest to cover that (and the stained bare wood) with? I've got tung oil, teak oil, polyurethane, spar urethane and a few other options at my disposal I was just hoping to build up some teak oil or go snag some tru oil but I'm not sure how well that would build over the already built up areas...
 
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