Fret Level Question

[jimistone]

This is pretty much the process I planned to use since I have that triangle file, sandpaper, tape, and a marker. I'm not sure how fine a grit I have...he uses the micro mesh stuff which is really fine.

YouTube

Do you think that's fine for just doing a handful of frets?

PS. Philadelphia luthier supply has good tools at good prices. Same quality as stewmac at like half the price.

I start with 400 grit (smooths out the file marks) and follow with 1000 (smooths out the tiny 400 grit scratches) and finally 1500 grit (polishes out the microscopic 1000 grit scratches).

Finally I go over them with very fine steel wool and polish with a dremmel tool and machine polish.

bear in mind this is FAR beyond what is done to the frets of 90% of brand spanking new guitars. So, it may be overkill on a $10 guitar.
I would probably try to match the finish level the rest of the frets are at on that one

 

[keith.rogers]

Grind one corner off the small triangle file and it will be a lot less likely to leave mark. I've used mine for crowning everything, though most recently just jumbo/bass frets because I only have a smaller crowning file that I acquired out of laziness. I still use the triangle file for rounding the fret ends before hitting with fine & finer sandpaper.

Trying to do setups without a reliable straight edge and knowing how to tell a neck or join problem from a fret problem generally means someone's guitar is going to get screwed up.

 

[Nola]

Yeah, I was thinking of getting a notched straight edge before doing this to get the neck perfectly straight. I used the string as a straight edge and that looked like a fret problem, and fretting out/dead frets high up around the 17th fret suggest a fret problem (unless the neck is ramping, but that's rare on fender bolt ons).

 

[miroslav]

Yeah, I was thinking of getting a notched straight edge before doing this to get the neck perfectly straight.

You might want a little relief...depending if the guy is a light (less) or heavy (more) player.

Light - .010" to .020" - Heavy

I use a spark plug feeler gauge I've had for years. It has the small blades, each marked with it's gauge.
I then open three blades - 0.012" (0.3mm), .016" (0.4mm)...these are approximate conversions...but within 100ths.
I'll set my relief using the low E at 0.3mm-to-0.4mm, at about the 8th-9th fret, with capo on the 1st fret and me holding the fret where the neck meets the body with my finger.

If you don't have a gauge...use the tap method at the 8th-9th frets, and ballpark it.

 

[Nola]

He's pretty heavy handed, IMO, but he played one of my guitars at our last practice and loved the setup. Mine has just a little relief and about 2mm/1.5mm (E and E) with the strings following the radius. He raved about it and asked me to setup his like this. When I did, I noticed his dead frets (he had action at almost 3mm across the board...I guess trying to cover up the fret issues). If the neck is perfectly straight, and then you put .10-46s on it, the string's tension will bend the neck a bit and give it some relief, right? That's what I was thinking I'd do to just put a little relief in it. Just get it straight then use the strings tension to add a hair of relief.

Anyway, thanks for all the ideas and conversation. First time doing this...a lot to think about. Luckily the guy doesn't care about this $10 guitar, so we'll see what happens!

 

[RFR]

Before doing or buying anything, determine WHY the fret(s) are high.

Is it because the fingerboard is swelling? Is it due to wear causeing orher frets to be lower?
Is it due to the neck being straightened too much? ( that will cause buzz in the cowboy chord area.)
Or is it due to the offending frets lifting?

Find out why first.

If it is a case of lifting, often times all that's needed is to clean the gunk out from underneath the crown, get some glue in there and tap or clamp the fret down.
Titebond works fine to hold it, as it swells the wood some. Superglue works too but can be messy and a bitch to clean up the squeeze out. Or in the case of tapping the fret, squirt out.

By all means, learn to do some fretwork, but find out the underlying cause first.

 

[Nola]

By all means, learn to do some fretwork, but find out the underlying cause first.

I hear ya!
There are cracks around the bolt on joint. When I saw those, I thought the guitar might have fallen and/or maybe tightened too much and compressed the wood. Thought maybe this made the frets go up because it's mostly the upper registry (15th and 17th frets). But, the 6th fret and maybe the 9th also have it, so I'm not sure about that theory. It's a maple board that has a sealant on it, so I don't know if anything got under the frets (is that possible when they're coated?). So I'm really not positive of the cause, but you're right, and I'll try to find the cause. I ordered a notched straight edge, so hopefully that helps in diagnosing.

 

[miroslav]

By all means, learn to do some fretwork, but find out the underlying cause first.

Just out of curiosity...do you have preferred amount of relief, and what measurements do you like to use... or do you kinda go with what the player wants...or...?

 

[RFR]

Just out of curiosity...do you have preferred amount of relief, and what measurements do you like to use... or do you kinda go with what the player wants...or...?

Nope.. Measurments are useless except as a ballpark guide.

Some guys you can do zero relief with ,08 guage strings practlicly painted on the fingerboard, and some guys need lots of relief with .13s and high acrion. And anything in between.
It varies as much as people do.
Something that can be unplayable for you without buzzing, will be perfect for another person with every note being clean.

This is why it's good for a player to learn to do his own setups. You can get it perfect for you, and you alone

I'll usually set relief to where the player likes how it feels and can play the notes cleanly. Then, I'll give it a tiny bit more. Because if they are a gigging player, they are guaranteed to hit it harder once on stage with adrenaline pumping.

 

[RFR]

I hear ya!
There are cracks around the bolt on joint. When I saw those, I thought the guitar might have fallen and/or maybe tightened too much and compressed the wood. Thought maybe this made the frets go up because it's mostly the upper registry (15th and 17th frets). But, the 6th fret and maybe the 9th also have it, so I'm not sure about that theory. It's a maple board that has a sealant on it, so I don't know if anything got under the frets (is that possible when they're coated?). So I'm really not positive of the cause, but you're right, and I'll try to find the cause. I ordered a notched straight edge, so hopefully that helps in diagnosing.

Gotcha. Well if it's a finished maple neck most likely you need to break out the files.

Usually bolt on necks join the body around the 16th fret. That area can often develop a 'hump'. The rest of the neck can flex, move, bow, ect. But where it joins the body it ain't moving. too much wood to keep it in place.
So your relief occurs between the nut and where it joins the body.
As to the cracks, maybe its just a case of moisture getting in to the screw holes causing it to swell and crack the finish.
Good luck, at least it's a cheap guitar you get to experiment on.

 

[jimistone]

I have never been able to have really low action. I have a very heavy handed technique. I pick hard and fast with my right hand and pluck the bottom E string pretty hard with mm my ring finger when bending it. The tone just isn't there with low action. I really dislike strings lighter than 10's. prefer 11's.

My problem now is I'm out of playing trim and my finger tips aren't tough as nails anymore.
11's hurt on deep blues bends now.

 

[Nola]

Interesting. I pick very lightly with single notes, but when it comes to chords I clang into the strings. Been trying to fix that but just can't seem to stop hitting the low E string to hard on the strum. So, 2mm and a very slight relief get the best compromise between lead and rhythm. Higher action sounds better. The notes are more pure, but it's hard on the hands and the notes can go sharp. It's all a compromise really.

 

[Nola]

Hey RFR, I attached photos of the cracks. Can you tell what's going on? Since it was on both sides it looked like a fall to me. Would that cause frets to rise?

 

[RFR]

Cracks are on the body. Not neck. Those are just stress cracks. Very common. And no, it wouldn't cause the frets to rise.
Pull the neck off and if you're worried about them shoot some super gue into the cracks from the neck pocket. Get some water thin glue and don't overdo it. Just wick a little bit. I emphasise, a little bit in there. It will seep in and stabilize the cracks.
While you have the neck off, do the same to the screw holes. It will make them harder and stronger, so when you tighten up the neck it won't shift.

Best to have the neck off when doing fretwork anyway.

 

[Nola]

Thanks, boss.

Cracks are on the body. Not neck.

Doh. Thinking about one thing and writing about another...

 

[Nola]

I received the notched straight edge today. This neck is messed up. So frets 1 through 3 touch, then it doesn't touch again until frets 19, 20, and 21. This is with the truss rod adjusted all the way for straightness. Yikes. What would cause this? Are there any solutions for a maple fretboard?

I thought about suggesting he go to .09 gauge thinking it might let the middle of the neck come up a bit more.

Should I still try to level the frets that rock? The nut is also a hair high but I fear lowering it will cause more fret/buzz issues.

 

[RFR]

You have no room left for tightening?
Strings on or off?
Heel adjustment or headstock?

Can't do much on the frets till the neck is straight.



If it really won't go straight with the rod being tightened, try the below

You have any clamps? If so..
Take the neck off, loosen the truss rod, lay the neck face down on something flat and level. (Kitchen counter works well)
Make sure the nut is not touching the counter. (Better yet take it off)
Clamp the neck in the middle where it's bowing! put a lamp on it to get some heat on the neck.

Heat it in the clamps for a few hours, then let it cool, leaving the clamps on.

Make any sense?


Or..... you could just throw the damn thing away. Lol

 

[Nola]

Got it, thanks!
The strings were on when I was trying to get it straight using the truss rod and the notched straight edge (holding it in playing position).

What do you use to heat the neck for the 2hrs?

 

[RFR]

Got it, thanks!
The strings were on when I was trying to get it straight using the truss rod and the notched straight edge (holding it in playing position).

What do you use to heat the neck for the 2hrs?

100:watt light bulb works fine. Position it so it gets warm to hot. Not too close. You can burn off the finish.

You'll want at least 3 clamps, one on each end and one in the middle Do it with the rod loose! The goal is to force the wood itself to go straight.

Edit; Hey! You still gotta answer the questions. We're flying blind here.

 

[miroslav]

The goal is to force the wood itself to go straight.

I had one in the opposite direction...it was a used buy from GC, and I think the idiots left the truss rod cranked with the strings super loose for a long time.
Even with the T-rod completely loose and a set of 10 gauge string wound to proper pitch, the neck was struggling initially to provide any relief.
So, I cranked up the string, let it sit...then a few hours later crank them a bit more (like maybe two whole steps up), and let it sit overnight.
By the next day I had my relief and I could then put the stings back to pitch, and get the rod to where it was feeling the start of some tension, and was able to even turn it about 1/2 turn more to set the proper relief.
If it had not moved enough over night...then I would have hit it a bit with a hair dryer to help it along.
I've done that in the past, work the dryer with one hand, and with the guitar secure between my legs, I would put the other hand on the headstock, but the nut, and then either pull or push gently while fanning the hairdryer up/down the neck to get the wood to move some.

[MENTION=188609]Nola[/MENTION] ...if you're going to get into checking the whole neck and doing more than some minor leveling/crowning on a couple of frets...I would remove the strings, loosen the rod to where it's just catching, and let the neck relax and settle a bit...then see what you have with the frets.
I mean...it's kinda awkward trying to do any real fret work with the strings on.