Calluses

spantini said:
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I find that ^^^ to be a very awkward and unnatural hold...even limiting and somewhat unstable.
It's the typical "classic guitar" hold, but it just doesn't work for me at all.

It may work for some...maybe if you have those 8" fingers...but I think most people will "roll" their thumb up/down around the neck as they play, and as they change positions.
 
I've got big palms and short fat digits so neck size and shape pretty much are critical. I bought a BC Rich Warlock back in the late eighties as my first 2 octave flat fretboard shred style guitar and after about 3-4 months it became so painful to play(especially to my thumb, but also on my wrist)that I traded it and some cash at the local GC for a brand new cherry sunburst Epi Les Paul. I have acoustic guitar calluses' (callusi?) but my day job is master mechanic which keeps the skin on my fingers pretty tough so I haven't had blisters from playing Bass since I was 17 or something. I have an Ibanez bass, a Jazz bass and cheap Chinese five string that actually doesn't play/sound half bad but the Jazz is the most versatile for me.
 
Hello Nola,

Thanks for bringing the unconventional picking technique to members' attention. I posted the video merely for the fretting positioning insight as possibly being of value for spantini avoiding blisters in the thumb joint. Good observation, on your part, on the picking technique, however.

Interestingly, as the instructor walks through his store, during the first minute or so of the video, there are brief clips of him playing an acoustic and electric with a conventional pick-hand technique.

Personally, I would think for an introductory video a traditional pick-hand technique would have been appropriate.

After that particular video ends, it next goes to a much more recent instructional video of his. He is playing Country, and the pick-hand technique is conventional.

I was curious whether picking technique in the posted video might have been or still is a trend in Jazz playing that was borrowed from Metal (or possibly vice versa); hence, this would explain the "raking" and "shredding" terms he referred to that technique as also known. (He still may use it in his Jazz playing as it does allow for much faster playing, not that Jazz has traditionally been played in that fashion.)

Afterward, I searched YouTube entries of "raking" and "shredding" for any variations of that technique--to simply see if it is used much and by whom. Indeed, the results produced a number of speed-genre instructors of Metal. In common with video I posted, like the instructor's Jazz playing, the Metal instructors used a steep pick angle and pushing/pulling. One young instructor was using a rotation of the wrist, but was not playing with the same greater speed.

(I would not be surprised if other Jazz players use it, too, as a popular approach; however, it did not come up under those specific entries.)

I was surprised to see that a lot of mechanical theory has been applied to "raking" and "shredding," as it is insightfully widely discussed. At first, I thought it to be formed from misapplied technique, but it appears to be conventional in form within its specific applications.

One point about what is seen sometimes with the instructor's arm/shoulder movement: It occurs (as a matter of convenience) while teaching on something else, not actually when he's playing. I watched it again after that point was raised; when he is playing demonstrations, it is actually is from the wrist--freely so and not having unnecessary movement. However, he should have been more aware of the shoulder/arm movement: If viewers thought it part of the picking technique it could lead to stress in those areas. As he goes along in years, he's become very good in front of the camera in giving attention to how little things are perceived by the viewer--probably the difference between learning to teach in person verses via video.

Thanks for your important observation. It forced me to go deeper into a subject area and opened my mind--not to a technique as something I want to apply, but that conventional can be specific to application. I also learned from members' replies that technique is highly personal in form.

Greatly appreciative for the life-learning opportunity--JeffF.
 
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Nola said:
But my question was about right hand. He has the pick at a 45 degree angle, and that just looks insane. I have a very slight pick tilt (10 degrees?) and use my wrist to pick. He has a massive tilt and is poking at the strings with his arm. It's weird looking.
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I'll do that style too, a heavy angle on the pick...and the only time I'm using just my wrist is if I'm soft-strumming chords.
Otherwise, it is usually combination wrist/forearm movement, more forearm when I'm really digging in...though I don't watch myself playing... :D ...so I can't say when/why I adjust my pick hold or my wrist/arm movements.

With a bigger angle on the pick, it changes the attack, especially if you're using a lighter pick. I use to do that a lot with the standard size, medium gauge picks. The angle stiffens up the tip and you get a harder/faster attack.
These days I use the small Dunlop Jazz III reds...which is a pretty stiff pick, so I'm not needing to tilt the pick angle like that...or I'll put the pick down and just use my forefinger, and picking with my nail at a sharp angle, if I want a fatter tone.

IMO...right-hand techniques are often overlooked...with the focus mostly going to the left-hand fingering...but the right-hand is where a lot of your tone and speed or variety comes from, and the left-hand work can be greatly improved when the right-hand picking is working with it at its best.
 
miroslav said:
I'll do that style too, a heavy angle on the pick...and the only time I'm using just my wrist is if I'm soft-strumming chords.
Otherwise, it is usually combination wrist/forearm movement, more forearm when I'm really digging in...though I don't watch myself playing... :D ...so I can't say when/why I adjust my pick hold or my wrist/arm movements.

With a bigger angle on the pick, it changes the attack, especially if you're using a lighter pick. I use to do that a lot with the standard size, medium gauge picks. The angle stiffens up the tip and you get a harder/faster attack.
These days I use the small Dunlop Jazz III reds...which is a pretty stiff pick, so I'm not needing to tilt the pick angle like that...or I'll put the pick down and just use my forefinger, and picking with my nail at a sharp angle, if I want a fatter tone.

IMO...right-hand techniques are often overlooked...with the focus mostly going to the left-hand fingering...but the right-hand is where a lot of your tone and speed or variety comes from, and the left-hand work can be greatly improved when the right-hand picking is working with it at its best.
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I developed my right hand technique while looking at penhouse mags when I was entering puberty.

I atribute my skill on the guitar to that. It built strength in my fast strumming pick attack.
:guitar:
 
miroslav said:
I'll do that style too, a heavy angle on the pick...and the only time I'm using just my wrist is if I'm soft-strumming chords.
Otherwise, it is usually combination wrist/forearm movement, more forearm when I'm really digging in...though I don't watch myself playing... :D ...so I can't say when/why I adjust my pick hold or my wrist/arm movements.
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Do you anchor at all?
I've read a lot of debate about that online, and I really think some styles can't be played unless you anchor. It's hard to get speed + accuracy when floating. Though, I do like floating for slower, more mellow tunes.

There's a good video on youtube there the guy describes strumming as "paintbrush" (broad strokes) and picking as "pencil" (fine movement). When picking single notes I usually anchor my palm to the saddle and use the wrist or put my pinky on the body as an anchor.

I experimented with that 45 degree angle...it seems good to cut through the strings for arpeggio type work so the pick doesn't get caught up. I don't see much else use for it. The tone actually sounds worse at 45 degrees...kind of a thin sound.

JeffF said:
Hello Nola,

Thanks for bringing the unconventional picking technique to members' attention.

Thanks for your important observation.
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No problem. It's interesting.
 
ashcat_lt said:
I've been playing for 30 years, any bad fretting habits I might pick up are already pretty well learned by now. ;)
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That pretty much sums it up. Bad habits are directly related to technique. Which is not reaaly something anyone can judge nor can the player change.

Everyone has their own thing...

Cheers!
 
Nola said:
Do you anchor at all?
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Not constantly, but yeah, often the left heal of my palm is anchored to the top of the bridge. That said, when I pick up one of the single coil guitars with the three pups...the bridge is non-existent, it's all one with the tailpiece, and too far back to anchor on, but I'll just put my palm on the top (low) stings then if/when I need some anchor.
Also, the forearm will anchor on the body. Sometimes when I'm playing a lot, the inside of my forearm will get red, like a "rug-burn" because it's anchored yet always rubbing as I move my wrist and forearm.
Though like I said...it's not a constant thing...and sometimes I'll play with both forearm and palm completely off the guitar...going back and forth to an anchored position.
Of course...I just don't see myself or really think about it at all when playing. So it's hard to tell how often and what I do during an hour or two of playing.
I guess I can put up a video camera and capture my bastard playing "technique". :p



jimmys69 said:
That pretty much sums it up. Bad habits are directly related to technique. Which is not reaaly something anyone can judge nor can the player change.

Everyone has their own thing...

Cheers!
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Exactly...and why I think it's kinda pointless for someone that's been playing for years to worry about some "correct" hand position and fingering technique for either hand. For beginners, yes...but to a point, because again, everyone is different in their approach and their physical shape/size...so trying to stick to any one "correct" technique will not help everyone.

And yes...it's often the "bad habits" that over time will become the essence of someone's style and sound.
I mean...not every bad habit will yield a good result...but if everyone played the same, they would all sound the same.
I also think the really bad habits that hinder significantly...are usually sorted out by most veterans players over time. You're going to realize at some point that you've hit a real wall, and you either sort it out in a way that is comfortable to you...or you'll never get over that wall, and that becomes the limit of your improvement.

From a personal perspective...I play better now than I ever played before. My problem is the hands are not as pain free and as nimble as when I was 20-30 something...but my technique has improved 10-fold.
I'm still not a top "virtuoso" player...but I can hold my own. :)
At this point...my "wall" is mostly about breaking out of some repetitions. Finding new ways to play the same 12 notes. It's the repetition that helps with the technique, but it can also leave you in a repetition rut if you don't listen to what you are playing, and instead just let your fingers follow the same well worn paths.
 
This made me check out wtf my hands are doing. I haven't paid attention since I was about 9 years old. But really, my left hand goes all over from the middle of the neck to almost wrapping around, depending what I'm doing with my other fingers. With more open strumming, the thumb is further back, closer to the middle, but with more precise picking (solo/blues riff) it'll be closer to the edge, borderline-over the neck and encroaching upon the E string. It's pretty loose and I don't think a solid, fixed position would help anything much.
 
This is why I quit playing guitar... Then moved to playing bass, and then later moved to playing drums. I just want to hit some shit, make and record good music!! lol
 
miroslav said:
... Also, the forearm will anchor on the body. Sometimes when I'm playing a lot, the inside of my forearm will get red, like a "rug-burn" because it's anchored yet always rubbing as I move my wrist and forearm...... :p ..
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When I was gigging with my Hofner violin bass, my forearm would press hard against the sharp cornered edge around the cutout and I would get some pretty bad abrasion there. The middle of my forearm was the anchor and it developed an almost permanent creased indent that would take a day or two to pop out.

QkGxIfo.jpg
 
spantini said:
When I was gigging with my Hofner violin bass, my forearm would press hard against the sharp cornered edge around the cutout and I would get some pretty bad abrasion there. The middle of my forearm was the anchor and it developed an almost permanent creased indent that would take a day or two to pop out.
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Check out this video of the late-great Rick Parfitt from Status Quo...hit at at about 3:30 where he talks about the wear on the guitar from his forearm.
That's some serous wear! :D

 
jimmys69 said:
Wrist bands. Hard to find them without the NIKE logo, but they work. :)
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LOL! I didn't know from wristbands back then. The only ones I can recall were either sweatbands in exercise videos, or those heavy, wide leather watch bands.

miroslav said:
Check out this video of the late-great Rick Parfitt from Status Quo...hit at at about 3:30 where he talks about the wear on the guitar from his forearm.
That's some serous wear! :D
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That was cool :) I like when he says "I turn it up, and I leave it up". Now that is some serious arm wear - he's made it into a hybrid Tele-Strat body.
 
spantini said:
LOL! I didn't know from wristbands back then. The only ones I can recall were either sweatbands in exercise videos, or those heavy, wide leather watch bands.



That was cool :) I like when he says "I turn it up, and I leave it up". Now that is some serious arm wear - he's made it into a hybrid Tele-Strat body.
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Steve Harris. Iron Maiden. Wrist band/flatwound bass dood. lol!
 
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