Apples to apples, Taylors to Martins

[HapiCmpur]

Over the past couple of weeks I've been playing a lot of acoustic guitars, trying to figure out which one in the $2000 to $3000 range I want to take home and love for the rest of my life. So far I've found that I like the playability of Taylors a lot more than Martins. Setting aside tone and other considerations for the moment, I'd like to get some opinions on how people judge playability when comparing guitars from different manufacturers.

I suspect, for instance, that Taylors come from the factory with lower action than Martins and also with lower guage strings. Taylors also come equipped with Elixirs, which squeak a lot less than stock Martin strings. In short, comparing the two is like comparing the proverbial apples to oranges.

When I made this observation to the saleguy at my local TGC, he said that if I found a Martin with a tone I really liked, we could put lighter guage Elixirs on it and then their in-house tech could easily lower the action to my liking. (I'd have to buy it first, of course.)

This raises two questions: First, how much can the action really be lowered on an acoustic guitar. Second, will the guitar still produce a reasonably similar tone after its action has been lowered and it has been restrung with lighter guage strings?

 

[daav]

I've always heard that acoustics are intonnated to one gauage string and there was littel that could be done to adjust.

I am not a huge expert though, so others ought to wiegh in as well.

Daav.

 

[Audiocave]

I have an Martin OM21 which came with medium gage strings and the action set a little high. I put a set of light gage strings on it and am very pleased with the tone. This is a 000 size martin with rosewood back and sides and resonates well with the lighter gauge strings. I also had no intonation problems as a result of reducing the string gauge. As far as the action goes, I believe it is very typical of Martins to be set up a little high. The few people I know who have them all have similar experiences. I considered lowering the action but have gotten quite used to it now and will probably leave it as is. My reason for choosing this guitar above all else was how beautifully it sounded. I auditioned many acoustics at several music stores around town and this was simply the best sounding guitar I could find.

 

[IronFlippy]

This sounds like a post for Light. I didn't even think the action could be changed, unless you change the bridge.

 

[Zaphod B]

I've had my 1963 Martin D-28 since 1967. The string height can indeed be changed by removing the bridge piece from the bridge saddle, and filing the underside of it. I have had to do this a couple of times over the years to compensate for a slight bowing of the spruce top - common for this model. If the neck is straight, you can pretty much get the action as low as you like it.

 

[kahuna]

Setup: Guild Acoustic Guitar-- Adjustment and Care
These Instructions are for a Guild Guitar, but are typical and will work on many acoustics.

Electric Guitar Set Up

This set-up guide will give some basic, measurable parameters needed to keep your Guild acoustic guitar in optimum playing condition. Since every guitar neck, saddle height, nut height, neck angle, fret, and top condition may be slightly different, using some average measurements can give any guitar a basic, comfortable "feel". Personal preferences in string gauge, playing style and technical ability will determine how closely to "spec" you'll want to set your own instrument; there is not one set of parameters that is perfect for everyone. This guide also assumes that you know the parts of your guitar, some basic terms, and that the guitar you're adjusting has no structural damage; (i.e. worn or popped-up frets, separating bridge, loose or broken top braces, cracked nut or saddle, cracked or loose neck joint.)


Necessary Tools

- Set of automotive feeler gauges (.002 - .025)
- 6" ruler (with 1/32" and 1/64" increments)
- Light Tung oil or lemon oil
- Small Phillips screwdriver
- 1/2" nut driver
- Tuning fork or electronic tuner
- Wire cutters
- Peg winder
- Polish and clothe
Strings

After an initial visual inspection of the guitar, the least expensive and most dramatic enhancement to a guitar's sound and playability is to install a fresh set of strings. We recommend that you use Guild phosphor bronze acoustic guitar strings. Most of the guitars are shipped from the factory with new Guild L350 light-gauge strings, (.012 - .052). The set-up measurements used here are based on the tension of these strings. Note: The tension of strings from different manufacturers may vary slightly depending on core diameter, wrap-wire diameter and winding techniques, and may affect the setup specifications.

Loosen and remove all of the old strings. While the strings are off the guitar, it's a good idea to clean and seal the fingerboard and bridge. Light Tung oil or lemon oil are fairly traditional sealers. Bee's wax compounds are also excellent. Don't use standard guitar polish on unfinished fingerboards or bridges as they can actually dry out the wood. Guild offers an excellent guitar polish (P/N 350-9501-000) that cleans the top, back, sides and neck of your instrument.

When installing new strings, there are a few things that can be overlooked and may cause some problems later on.

1. Make sure the ball end of the string is seated snugly against the bridge pin at the bridge plate; this will insure that no pitch slipping occurs; (this is usually the cause of what a lot of people think is "string stretch").

2. Carefully wrap the strings around the tuning posts downward from the tuning post anchor hole; two to three complete wraps around the tuning post on the bass strings, and at least three complete wraps on the treble side, but no more than five are necessary. This will maintain the proper angle of the string over the nut.

3. Bring the strings completely up to pitch. Even a quarter-step below pitch can relax the tension in the top (behind and in front of the bridge) and the neck, leaving the guitar sounding a little dull and lifeless. Remember: more tension in the wood = more volume and sustain. Once the strings have settled "up" to pitch, you can start to check some of the measurements that determine great playability. Doing the steps out of order will force you to go back and recheck things over and over, so... maintain the flow, and your instrument will fall right into "spec".

Check And Adjust The Neck For Straightness

Guild acoustic guitars are equipped with a "Standard" truss rod (there are two types of "Standard" truss rod; one which adjusts at the heel of the neck, and one which adjusts at the headstock, but both operate on the same principle). The "Standard" truss rod can counteract concave curvature, for example: in a neck that has too much relief, by generating a force in the neck opposite to that caused by excessive string tension. Note: All Guild 12-string acoustic guitars feature a double truss rod system.

Remove the truss rod cover, if so equipped, and apply a capo at the 1st fret. Press down the 6th string at the 14th fret with your right hand. With a feeler gauge, measure the distance between the top of the 5th fret and the bottom of the 6th string. There should be a small gap (.006"+/- .002"); remember this gap will be one-half the thickness of the 1st string (.012"). This will determine the "neck relief" necessary to prevent string "buzz" caused by the normal vibration pattern (string excursion) of the strings. Less than a .006" gap may cause a "buzz" or cause "fret out" if some high frets exist. On Guild guitars, use a 1/4" nut driver to turn the truss rod clockwise to straighten the neck or counter-clockwise to add some "relief". Note: Medium gauge strings (.013"-.056") have higher tension, with less "string excursion", needing more truss rod tension to counteract the stronger string pull. This results in more volume, sustain and more "wood" in the guitar's tone. Note: In either case, if you meet excessive resistance or need for adjustment, or you're not comfortable with this adjustment, take your guitar to your authorized Guild Service Center.

Check The String Height At The 12th Fret

Remove the capo from the 1st fret. While looking at the side of the fingerboard on the bass side, place your small ruler behind the 6th string directly on the 12th fret. Measure the distance from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the 6th string. This gap should be from .085" to .093" (5.5/64" to 6/64"). Now measure the 1st string in the same fashion; place your ruler on the 12th fret behind the 1st string, then check the gap between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the 1st string. This gap should be .070" to .078" (4.5/64" to 5/64"). If the gap is too wide, you must "shave" the bottom of the bridge saddle or replace it with a shorter saddle. Either way, you'll probably have to do some cutting, so it's just as easy to shave the existing one. If the gap is too narrow, you'll need to put in a taller saddle. You could shim your existing saddle in a pinch, but shimming can dull the tone if it doesn't fit properly; so you may as well just cut a taller saddle, making sure the "radius" (side-to-side arc) on the top of the saddle matches the radius of the fingerboard. Note: Guild uses a 12" radius fingerboard on all guitars shipped from the factory.

Adjust (Shave) The Saddle

Loosen the strings, but don't remove them from the tuners. Place your capo back on the 1st fret, you can now pull and remove the bridge pins from the bridge with no damage to the tuning post windings. Draw a light pencil line across the base of the saddle along the top of the bridge. Use pliers or wire snips to GENTLY lift the saddle from the saddle slot. Caution: Don't try to pry it up or you may chip wood away from the bridge slot. Using a flat file, remove an amount of material from the bottom of the saddle DOUBLE the amount of the 12th fret overage; (i.e. if your 12th fret gap is 1/64" too high, you need to remove 2/64"(1/32") from the bottom of the saddle). Drop the saddle back into the saddle slot and draw another pencil line across the saddle at the base of the bridge. Pull the saddle out again and check your work. The critical aspect here is to keep the bottom of the saddle flat and level so it sits flat in the saddle slot. If the saddle gets rounded off, you'll lose volume on the bass or treble side, or even worse, if your guitar is equipped with an electronic transducer, you'll lose response. When you have completed the modification to the saddle, re-install it into the slot, then re-seat the strings and re-install the bridge pins. Remove the capo and retune the guitar to pitch. Because you've taken the tension off the neck by loosening the strings, you must now go back and check the neck straightness (using the preceding procedures), as the truss rod may have shifted during tension release. Now remove the capo and recheck your 12th fret measurements. Repeat the shaving procedure if necessary. Note: If you feel you need this adjustment to be made and you're not comfortable with the procedure, take your guitar to your authorized Guild Service Center.


Check The String Height At The 1st Fret

Again, using the feeler gauge, measure the gap between the top of the 1st fret and the bottom of the 6th string; the gap should be .022" +/- .002". Measure the 1st string gap in the same fashion; with a feeler gauge between the top of the 1st fret and the bottom of the 1st string. The gap at the 1st fret should be .020" +/- .002". Each string must be measured and adjusted separately because you shouldn't remove the nut to shave the bottom as you would with the bridge saddle.

Caution: The following procedure should only be made with the proper files and a certain amount of experience. If you feel you need this adjustment to be made and you're not comfortable with the procedure, take your guitar to your authorized Guild Service Center.

Carefully cut the string slots in the nut with "nut slot files". Angle the string slots downward towards the headstock to relieve any pinching of the strings that may happen on that side of the nut. If you cut too deeply, the slot can be filled with a mixture of baking soda and crazy glue, and, after it sets, the slot can be cut again. Caution: the nut must be isolated with masking tape and wipe away any excess crazy glue with a piece of tissue paper to protect the finish around the nut. Retune your guitar, it should now meet factory specifications and "play like butter".

 

[Light]

Setting aside tone and other considerations for the moment, I'd like to get some opinions on how people judge playability when comparing guitars from different manufacturers.

NOT a good idea, but OK, for the moment...

I suspect, for instance, that Taylors come from the factory with lower action than Martins and also with lower guage strings. Taylors also come equipped with Elixirs, which squeak a lot less than stock Martin strings. In short, comparing the two is like comparing the proverbial apples to oranges.

Well, I know that Taylor likes to ship small guitars with lights, and big guitars with mediums. Bob has a theory that mediums will put out too much energy for the smaller tops, that they can't excurse (move) that much. Being a repair shop, and not a retailer, I don't know what Martin ships on there guitars, but I would not be surprised if they were doing the same as Taylor these days.

As for the action, Martin has lowered their specs in the last few years, probably in response to Taylor guitars. They used to spec 4/32 on the bass side and 3/32 on the treble side. These days, it is down to 3/32 and 2/32, although rather proud. More like 3.5/32 and 2.5/32. (Yeah I know that would be 7/64 and 5/64, but reading 64ths is difficult, and it is actually easier to see half a 32nd than to see a 64th.)

When I made this observation to the saleguy at my local TGC, he said that if I found a Martin with a tone I really liked, we could put lighter guage Elixirs on it and then their in-house tech could easily lower the action to my liking. (I'd have to buy it first, of course.)

At a Banjo Mart? Not bloody likely.

This raises two questions: First, how much can the action really be lowered on an acoustic guitar. Second, will the guitar still produce a reasonably similar tone after its action has been lowered and it has been restrung with lighter guage strings?

The action on an acoustic can be lowered by quite a bit. It is all just a matter of how you play. If you bang the shit out of your guitar, then we can't go too low. The harder you hit, the more the strings move, and the more easily it will buzz. But if you are a light fingerstyle kinda guy, then it can come down very low. My guitars are all but electric guitars, the action is so low. I have severe hand problems (I haven't actually been able to play acoustic in a couple of months now, which really sucks), and I play fingerstyle, so for me that works. It would not have worked for a guy like SRV, because he hit the damn things so hard. The geometry of any guitar, and particularly an acoustic guitar, is pretty sensitive, though, and the lower you go the more sensitive it will become. So they are kind of like a high performance car. The more precisely it needs to be, the more often it is going to need work. I have customers who have their guitars in every month or so, because they can feel even the slightest change, and it is a problem for them. Generally, these guys are well paid professionals who play for at least several hours a day. This is their professional tool, and what ever it takes to keep it working is reasonable for them.

As is probably evident from what I said earlier, string gauge can have a dramatic effect on the sound of a guitar. As I said, Bob thinks that big guitars like bigger strings. I think it is more individual than that. I've played some little guitars which absolutely sounded better with mediums, but I've also played some which sounded better with lights. And the same is true for big guitars.

The biggest change, however, would be in putting on those tone sucks called Elixirs. That coating does limit the squeaks, and it does make them last longer, but they sound like shit from the beginning, so why would I want them to last a long time? They will, at the very least, suck all the brightness out of your guitar. If you like the sound of the Martin more (and I would, but others do of course feel different), at least part of that is probably the strings. You might even ask them to put real strings on the Taylor and see if you like it more. I'm betting you would, though I still find that Taylors have a really wimpy bottom end.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

I've had my 1963 Martin D-28 since 1967. The string height can indeed be changed by removing the bridge piece from the bridge saddle, and filing the underside of it. I have had to do this a couple of times over the years to compensate for a slight bowing of the spruce top - common for this model. If the neck is straight, you can pretty much get the action as low as you like it.

Well, up to a point. Eventually, the saddle will get so low that you can't go any further. That is when you get to needing a neck reset. Also, a guitar will sound better, up to a point, with a taller saddle. I puts more downward pressure on the top, which makes the energy transfer more efficient. A good thing, for sure.

What is basically happening is that the neck is tipping up into the guitar. Actually, it bulges up behind the bridge, it dips down in front of the bridge, a little up at the fingerboard extension, and the neck tips up the other way. Basically, your guitar is trying to be come an accordion. At any rate, eventually, the geometry gets all fucked up and needs to be fixed. When it comes time for a neck reset, don't even THINK about trying it yourself. It is a very complex and time consuming job, which if done wrong can completely ruin the guitar.

And for what it is worth, any guitar that sounds good is going to eventually need a neck reset. There is no way around it. It is simply a fact of life. If they are built so they will never ever need a neck reset, they sound like shit. Martin will cover neck resets up to about 40 years under warranty, but after that they (correctly) do not believe that it is a defect in workmanship or material, but is simply a natural consequence of building a good sounding guitar.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Outlaws]

This might seem obvious, but I have this theory about buying new guitars....

-If you don't like the guitar 100% while playing it on the show room floor, then hold off until you find one you do.


Now I know a lot of guitars are strung with cruddy old strings, but any respectable guitar shop will not do that with $2000+ guitars.

 

[HapiCmpur]

The biggest change, however, would be in putting on those tone sucks called Elixirs. That coating does limit the squeaks, and it does make them last longer, but they sound like shit from the beginning, so why would I want them to last a long time? They will, at the very least, suck all the brightness out of your guitar.

Okay, not trying to start a shootin' war here, but......

In addition to liking the playability of all the Taylors I've tried so far over all the Martins I've tried, I also like the tone of most of the Taylors better than most of the Martins. (Yes, I'm as surprised as anyone else.)

For one thing, I found the Taylors to be better balanced between high and low registers. For another, I found the Taylors to be more articulate than the Martins. Take Martin's HD-28, for instance. The one I played last week had lush, rich tones (good for strumming), but as a consequence it also produced mushy, runaway overtones when flatpicking or fingerpicking. It was kind of like trying to play distinct and delicate notes on a piano while holding down the sustain pedal.

Most of the Taylors were nearly as rich when strummed, but they were also clear and articulate when flat- or fingerpicked. In short, the Elixir strings didn't seem to be sucking the tone out of the Taylors. I guess I'm going to have to restring one and see what happens.

 

[sweetpeee]

When I made this observation to the saleguy at my local TGC, he said that if I found a Martin with a tone I really liked, we could put lighter guage Elixirs on it and then their in-house tech could easily lower the action to my liking. (I'd have to buy it first, of course.)


Wouldn't going to Taylor to do work on a Martin terminate the warranty?

 

[faderbug]

hey folks, when u want a $2000-3000 guitar there are a lot nicer (handmade) guitars than taylor or martin!!!

 

[qiktune]

you're looking at Martin D28 acoustics and you're concerned about playability/action and tonal nuances????????

Take that thing home and start writing and recording.....jeeezzzz

 

[HapiCmpur]

hey folks, when u want a $2000-3000 guitar there are a lot nicer (handmade) guitars than taylor or martin!!!

I'm definitely open to suggestions. Right now, the top contender of all the guitars I've played is a Taylor 814CE. I think it's selling for $2800. If anyone can direct me to a better guitar at that price point, I'll do my best to check it out.

Taylors and Martins are attractive to me because they're easy to research (lots of info on them on the Web), easy to find (all the major dealers carry them), and have a proven track record. What's more, The Guitar Center is even letting me take guitars home to see how they sound in my studio, and I doubt a boutique shop is going to let me do that. Nevertheless, since I'm looking for a guitar to last me the rest of my life, I don't mind investing the time and effort in shopping the boutiques if someone can point me in the right direction.

 

[Light]

...

The Guitar Center is even letting me take guitars home to see how they sound in my studio, and I doubt a boutique shop is going to let me do that. Nevertheless, since I'm looking for a guitar to last me the rest of my life, I don't mind investing the time and effort in shopping the boutiques if someone can point me in the right direction.

...

I can't imagine any high end guitar store NOT letting you take the guitars home to try out in your studio. I mean, you have to pay for it, but I'm betting the Banjo Mart is doing the same thing, yes?

If you like Taylors, though, you should really try and check out some of the hand builders in the "California Mafia." No, it is not an official group of any kind, but up there in Napa Valley, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a guitar builder. There are dozens of them up there. Now, not all of them will be in your price range, but if you can get yourself into a great guitar store, you can at least try them out. Most of those guys have the same kind of bright and, for lack of a better term, "new age-y" kind of sound that Taylors have, but with a bit more complexity and sensitivity. Personally, I can't stand the sound of most of their guitars, as to me they lack low end, but if you like Taylors they may well suit your ear.

Also, there are a lot of great builders out on the East Coast. If you really want to put some effort into it, the Newport Guitar Festival is going to be happening in August, coinsiding with the Newport Folk Festival. You are a lot closer than some to that area, so it might make some sense for you to head up there and check out all the builders. The last (also the first) Newport Guitar Festival was a great success, with most of the attendants (both builders and customers) felt that it was even better than the Heldsberg Festival, which is always a good event (even if, as a customer said to me there last time, you couldn't buy anything because it was too crowded to reach your wallet).

I know August is a ways away, but if you really want to find your life partner in your next guitar, it may be worth it to wait.

You're also not TOO far from Nashville (closer than I am, at any rate). You could take a long weekend and go check out Gruhn's and The Guitar Gallery, although Robin at the Guitar Gallery only does walk in's by appointment. She has a lot of fantastic guitars, though.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[gordone]

Santa Cruz OM/PW. Around $2600. Case closed!

 

[Docaroo]

personally, I'd buy a Martin without even thinking about Taylor. I really don't thing their acoustics compare to Martin.

Anyways, I'd go for a martin if I were you!

 

[gordone]

????????????????

You can have Joe Schmoe setup your guitar (and changing to lighter strings is pretty minor as setups go) and you won't terminate your warranty. If you have Joe Schmoe remove the bridge and place it somewhere else (to change the scale length perhaps?), then Martin wouldn't warranty the bridge.

Regardless, I don't see where HapiCmpur mentioned taking a Martin into Taylor for a setup.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but you should be able to adjust the action and make the Martin more playable without having to switch to lights. Probably just needs a little nut filing and saddle shaving.

Good luck with your search!

When I made this observation to the saleguy at my local TGC, he said that if I found a Martin with a tone I really liked, we could put lighter guage Elixirs on it and then their in-house tech could easily lower the action to my liking. (I'd have to buy it first, of course.)


Wouldn't going to Taylor to do work on a Martin terminate the warranty?

 

[HapiCmpur]

Santa Cruz OM/PW. Around $2600. Case closed!

The nearest Santa Cruz dealer is a little over 2 hours away, but if they have one of these in stock I'll drive down and check it out. Thanks for the tip.

 

[scrubs]

Over the past couple of weeks I've been playing a lot of acoustic guitars, trying to figure out which one in the $2000 to $3000 range I want to take home and love for the rest of my life.

Wait. So you can buy love?...I'm so confused.